Discussion:
Thousands Complain to Feds on Gas Gouging
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p***@ix.netcom.com
2005-09-02 03:22:18 UTC
Permalink
Thousands Complain to Feds on Gas Gouging
Sep 01 7:52 PM US/Eastern

By H. JOSEF HEBERT
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON

Soaring gasoline costs prompted thousands of complaints
Thursday to federal officials about alleged price gouging and
demands by some members of Congress for an investigation into
gasoline markets.

The Energy Department reported more than 5,000 calls to its
price gouging hotline from motorists around the country,
although officials emphasized there was no way to immediately
determine how many of the allegations were valid.

Department spokesman Drew Malcolm said the reports were being
turned over to the Federal Trade Commission.

The states with the most complaints were North Carolina,
Georgia, New York, Pennsylvania, Texas, Illinois, Tennessee,
New Jersey, Michigan and South Carolina.

Meanwhile, attorney's general from a number of states held
a telephone strategy session to discuss the rapidly escalating
gas prices and possible investigations into gouging. Prosecution
for price gouging is generally a state matter unless it involves
some form of collusion or other activity in violation of
federal antitrust laws.

Gas prices jumped 35 cents to 50 cents a gallon overnight in
some areas pushing to well over $3 a gallon after Hurricane
Katrina shut down nine Gulf Coast refineries, disrupted
gasoline pipelines to the Midwest and East and stopped 90
percent of the oil production in the Gulf of Mexico.

"If we get consumer complaints about (gasoline) prices,
we'll look at those complaints to find evidence of
anticompetitive conduct," said John Seesel, the FTC's
associate counsel for energy issues.

But Seesel said the FTC has no jurisdiction over an
individual gas station operator raising his price, no
matter how high, unless there is some collusion among
retailers. A number of states, however, have anti-gouging
statutes. Following FTC policy, he declined to say whether
any investigation were underway.

On Thursday, Attorney General Troy King of Alabama initiated
a private telephone conference with a number of his colleagues
from others states to discuss strategy in response to the
rising gas prices and reports of huge overnight spikes by
some gasoline retailers. No details about the private
discussion were available.

There have been isolated cases of unusually huge price jumps,
including a gas station in Georgia that briefly charged $6 a
gallon when competitors ran out of gas. In Michigan, there
was a price jump of nearly $1 a gallon overnight, although
prices then receded, according to Rep. Fred Upton, R-Mich.,
who drove around his district on Thursday to gauge prices.

"Prices are averaging $3.19. It's as high as $3.58 from
$2.61 on Tuesday," said Upton in a telephone interview.
"My sense is the supply and demand equation does not fit a
60-cent (a gallon) increase in the last 36 hours."

"In Illinois, prices are reported to have shot up 50 cents
per gallon overnight and the state attorney general received
more than 500 reports of price gouging," nine Democratic
members of the House Judiciary Committee wrote the FTC, asking
the agency to step up its review of gas markets.

"These increases go far beyond anything justified or relating
to the market disruptions caused by Hurricane Katrina," wrote
Rep. John Conyers of Michigan, the committee's ranking Democrat,
and the other members.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/01/D8CBP7TO8.html

____

Energy Department: http://www.doe.gov
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
2005-09-02 06:29:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@ix.netcom.com
Thousands Complain to Feds on Gas Gouging
Sep 01 7:52 PM US/Eastern
[snip...]

The complaints are valid, I think, because prices are obviously being
increased the next day for gasoline that was purchased by the gas stations
at a lower price the day before.

What I'd like to see--though the gas stations would never agree to do it--is
an itemized justification (either on printed paper posted at the pump or
displayed on the LCD screen at the pump) for whatever price they are
charging.

WE PAID: $x.xx/gallon
FEDERAL TAXES $x.xx/gallon extra
STATE TAXES $x.xx/gallon extra
YOU PAY: $x.xx/gallon

That would also be an easy indicator of how much an individual gas station
was actually marking up their gas, beyond the wholesale cost plus applicable
taxes.

And while pumps at some gas stations already indicate the federal and state
taxes, they don't ever include the wholesale cost per gallon that the gas
station actually paid.
SpammersDie
2005-09-02 13:49:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Post by p***@ix.netcom.com
Thousands Complain to Feds on Gas Gouging
Sep 01 7:52 PM US/Eastern
[snip...]
The complaints are valid, I think, because prices are obviously being
increased the next day for gasoline that was purchased by the gas stations
at a lower price the day before.
As has been pointed out in other threads, the price they paid yesterday
isn't nearly as important as the (higher) price they'll have to pay tomorrow
to replace the gas you pumped.

You wouldn't sell your Google stock today for what you paid for it six
months ago - gas is no different. Yesterday's market price is irrelevant.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
2005-09-02 16:41:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by SpammersDie
Post by Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Post by p***@ix.netcom.com
Thousands Complain to Feds on Gas Gouging
Sep 01 7:52 PM US/Eastern
[snip...]
The complaints are valid, I think, because prices are obviously being
increased the next day for gasoline that was purchased by the gas stations
at a lower price the day before.
As has been pointed out in other threads, the price they paid
yesterday
Post by SpammersDie
isn't nearly as important as the (higher) price they'll have to pay tomorrow
to replace the gas you pumped.
You wouldn't sell your Google stock today for what you paid for it six
months ago - gas is no different. Yesterday's market price is
irrelevant.
and how else will they have the money to pay for the next tank
filling? they must pay them upon delivery; it's not a credit system.
if they don't raise the price to cover the next full tank filling,
they'll have to buy less, and that spirals downward. also cc
companies charge something like 3% to charge, so gas at 3.00 is
costing .09 in cc fees to the stations.

i bet if they posted a cash price equal to the cost - cc %, more
people would pay in cash and save a little money.
Bill 2
2005-09-02 18:00:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Post by SpammersDie
Post by Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Post by p***@ix.netcom.com
Thousands Complain to Feds on Gas Gouging
Sep 01 7:52 PM US/Eastern
[snip...]
The complaints are valid, I think, because prices are obviously
being
Post by SpammersDie
Post by Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
increased the next day for gasoline that was purchased by the gas
stations
Post by SpammersDie
Post by Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
at a lower price the day before.
As has been pointed out in other threads, the price they paid
yesterday
Post by SpammersDie
isn't nearly as important as the (higher) price they'll have to pay
tomorrow
Post by SpammersDie
to replace the gas you pumped.
You wouldn't sell your Google stock today for what you paid for it
six
Post by SpammersDie
months ago - gas is no different. Yesterday's market price is
irrelevant.
and how else will they have the money to pay for the next tank
filling? they must pay them upon delivery; it's not a credit system.
if they don't raise the price to cover the next full tank filling,
they'll have to buy less, and that spirals downward. also cc
companies charge something like 3% to charge, so gas at 3.00 is
costing .09 in cc fees to the stations.
i bet if they posted a cash price equal to the cost - cc %, more
people would pay in cash and save a little money.
A gas station around here does that. Pay by cash or debit and they take 2
cents off per liter.

Some other stations affiliated with a grocery or retail store will offer
coupons back for a couple cents a liter if you pay with cash or debit.
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
2005-09-02 22:50:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by SpammersDie
Post by Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Post by p***@ix.netcom.com
Thousands Complain to Feds on Gas Gouging
Sep 01 7:52 PM US/Eastern
[snip...]
The complaints are valid, I think, because prices are obviously being
increased the next day for gasoline that was purchased by the gas stations
at a lower price the day before.
As has been pointed out in other threads, the price they paid yesterday
isn't nearly as important as the (higher) price they'll have to pay tomorrow
to replace the gas you pumped.
So they could mark it up a bit to offset the next day's cost, but the markup
would be obvious after one adds their cost, federal taxes, state taxes, then
notes how much beyond that the final price is.

Just saying that if the gas prices are in fact increasing, the oil companies
and gas stations should still have to be honest about it (as opposed to the
obvious gouging that is occurring right now).

[snip...]
Shawn Hirn
2005-09-04 16:07:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Post by SpammersDie
Post by Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Post by p***@ix.netcom.com
Thousands Complain to Feds on Gas Gouging
Sep 01 7:52 PM US/Eastern
[snip...]
The complaints are valid, I think, because prices are obviously being
increased the next day for gasoline that was purchased by the gas
stations
Post by SpammersDie
Post by Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
at a lower price the day before.
As has been pointed out in other threads, the price they paid yesterday
isn't nearly as important as the (higher) price they'll have to pay
tomorrow
Post by SpammersDie
to replace the gas you pumped.
So they could mark it up a bit to offset the next day's cost, but the markup
would be obvious after one adds their cost, federal taxes, state taxes, then
notes how much beyond that the final price is.
Just saying that if the gas prices are in fact increasing, the oil companies
and gas stations should still have to be honest about it (as opposed to the
obvious gouging that is occurring right now).
They are in business to make a profit. Making a profit is the American
way, but many Americans seem to think that only they have a right to
maximize their profits. If gas is too expensive for you, use less of it.
The Etobian
2005-09-02 23:26:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by SpammersDie
As has been pointed out in other threads, the price they paid yesterday
isn't nearly as important as the (higher) price they'll have to pay tomorrow
to replace the gas you pumped.
You wouldn't sell your Google stock today for what you paid for it six
months ago - gas is no different. Yesterday's market price is irrelevant.
But when prices drop, the price they paid yesterday suddenly becomes
more important than the lower price they'll have to pay tomorrow to
replace the gas you pumped.
SpammersDie
2005-09-03 00:21:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Etobian
Post by SpammersDie
As has been pointed out in other threads, the price they paid yesterday
isn't nearly as important as the (higher) price they'll have to pay tomorrow
to replace the gas you pumped.
You wouldn't sell your Google stock today for what you paid for it six
months ago - gas is no different. Yesterday's market price is irrelevant.
But when prices drop, the price they paid yesterday suddenly becomes
more important than the lower price they'll have to pay tomorrow to
replace the gas you pumped.
Is that any different from how you treat your Google stock?
Paul.
2005-09-02 19:21:41 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 23:29:53 -0700, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. , said the
following in rec.autos.driving...
Post by Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
What I'd like to see--though the gas stations would never agree to do it--is
an itemized justification (either on printed paper posted at the pump or
displayed on the LCD screen at the pump) for whatever price they are
charging.
WE PAID: $x.xx/gallon
FEDERAL TAXES $x.xx/gallon extra
STATE TAXES $x.xx/gallon extra
YOU PAY: $x.xx/gallon
FWIW, Our Governor here in GA (Sonny Perdue) has signed an order
suspending the state excise tax on gas for the month of September,
beginning at mignight tonight (from what I gathered in the article).
Makes me curious as to if the gas stations will be lowering their prices
any or not - I doubt it (the tax is only about $0.075/gallon or so.

I get the impression that all that will happen is the retailers will keep
the prices where they are and pocket the extra revenue at the expense of
the state government.

See: http://tinyurl.com/dneeq
--
Paul

Self-appointed unofficial overseer of kooks
and trolls in rec.autos.driving.

They love Spam:
***@yahoo.com
Andy
2005-09-02 19:37:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul.
FWIW, Our Governor here in GA (Sonny Perdue) has signed an order
suspending the state excise tax on gas for the month of September,
beginning at mignight tonight (from what I gathered in the article).
Makes me curious as to if the gas stations will be lowering their prices
any or not - I doubt it (the tax is only about $0.075/gallon or so.
I get the impression that all that will happen is the retailers will keep
the prices where they are and pocket the extra revenue at the expense of
the state government.
I think suspending gas excise taxes isn't going to lower prices, it
will just increase profits for the gas stations.

Think about it; If a station owner knows he is selling plenty of gas at
$3.50/gal, and then the governor eliminates the excise tax, why on
earth would the station owner lower the price at the pump? He knows he
can sell plenty at $3.50, and if the Governor wants to decline his
share of that $3.50 then the station owner will be glad to pick it up
as even more profit.

Even if the station owners did pass along the elimination of the excise
tax it would still be a dumb idea. There is a real shortage of gas in
GA, and demand has to be lowered to match reduced supply, one way or
the other. If the price is lowered by the elimination of excise tax
then people will not reduce consumption as much, and stations will
start running out of gas, lines will form, and everyone will waste
valuable time chasing around town looking for gas.

There is no possible public benefit from eliminating the excise tax.
The only person who benefits is the Governor of GA who gets some
headlines that create the appearance of helping the average joe, while
actually helping the station owners (who will probably reward him
generously in the next campaign cycle).

Andy
larry
2005-09-02 20:28:20 UTC
Permalink
thanks for the heads-up. Here i am living in Atlanta and wasn't even
aware of any shortage. Of course, I don't know the situation in Arizona,
where you appear to be posting from, since i'm not there.
There is a real shortage of gas in GA, and demand
has to be lowered to match reduced supply, one way or
the other.
Andy
2005-09-02 21:41:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by larry
thanks for the heads-up. Here i am living in Atlanta and wasn't even
aware of any shortage. Of course, I don't know the situation in Arizona,
where you appear to be posting from, since i'm not there.
Well, there are reports of gas lines and stations running out of gas in
Atlanta in the national media, and Atlanta gets some or all of its gas
from the refineries that are shut down, but if you don't think there is
a shortage then there must not be.

Aug. 31 (Bloomberg) -- Gasoline futures rose as much as 13 percent
after Hurricane Katrina shut oil refineries near the Gulf of Mexico,
raising prospects pump prices across the U.S. will exceed $3 a gallon.
...
Concern about shortages of gasoline led to lines at filling stations
in Georgia. Peter Lopez, an employee at a Camp Creek Parkway Exxon
station near Atlanta's Hartsfield Jackson International Airport, said a
line began forming for gasoline at 3:30 p.m. local time that was 18
cars long. ``We have big lines,'' Lopez said. ``We have just a few
gallons left.''

Mike Brown, owner of Georgetown Chevron in Chamblee, Georgia, said his
station had run out of gasoline. ``People are just lined up,'' he said.
``All of a sudden, people are panicking.''
Paul.
2005-09-02 23:13:51 UTC
Permalink
On 2 Sep 2005 12:37:43 -0700, Andy , said the following in
rec.autos.driving...
Post by Andy
Post by Paul.
FWIW, Our Governor here in GA (Sonny Perdue) has signed an order
suspending the state excise tax on gas for the month of September,
beginning at mignight tonight (from what I gathered in the article).
Makes me curious as to if the gas stations will be lowering their prices
any or not - I doubt it (the tax is only about $0.075/gallon or so.
I get the impression that all that will happen is the retailers will keep
the prices where they are and pocket the extra revenue at the expense of
the state government.
I think suspending gas excise taxes isn't going to lower prices, it
will just increase profits for the gas stations.
Think about it; If a station owner knows he is selling plenty of gas at
$3.50/gal, and then the governor eliminates the excise tax, why on
earth would the station owner lower the price at the pump? He knows he
can sell plenty at $3.50, and if the Governor wants to decline his
share of that $3.50 then the station owner will be glad to pick it up
as even more profit.
Exactly why I think it is a bad idea. The state misses out on a month's
worth of revenue for our highways and the crooks running the gas stations
make a killing.
Post by Andy
Even if the station owners did pass along the elimination of the excise
tax it would still be a dumb idea. There is a real shortage of gas in
GA, and demand has to be lowered to match reduced supply, one way or
the other.
Thing is, there is no shortage, just a perceived one. The part of the
state I live in is not even served by those pipe lines that went down
(which are also coming back up from what I hear). Yet we are being gouged
just like everyone else by these pirates.

"Kingston said that the Gulf Coast gas pipeline that was reported to have
been damaged by Hurricane Katrina would have no affect on gas
availability in this region."

"(Our) area is supplied by ships coming into Savannah, Charleston or
Jacksonville, not by the pipeline system currently shut down," he said."

See: http://tinyurl.com/9y3nm
Post by Andy
If the price is lowered by the elimination of excise tax
then people will not reduce consumption as much, and stations will
start running out of gas, lines will form, and everyone will waste
valuable time chasing around town looking for gas.
Again, there is no shortage (atleast in my area).
--
Paul

Self-appointed unofficial overseer of kooks
and trolls in rec.autos.driving.

They love Spam:
***@yahoo.com
Daniel J. Stern
2005-09-02 22:30:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul.
FWIW, Our Governor here in GA (Sonny Perdue) has signed an order
suspending the state excise tax on gas for the month of September,
Big schmeal. Georgia's gasoline tax is laughably low, anyhow.
Post by Paul.
beginning at mignight tonight (from what I gathered in the article).
Makes me curious as to if the gas stations will be lowering their prices
any or not - I doubt it (the tax is only about $0.075/gallon or so.
Exactly.
Post by Paul.
I get the impression that all that will happen is the retailers will keep
the prices where they are and pocket the extra revenue at the expense of
the state government.
Exactly.
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