Advice about a road trip through USA...

[Tapa]

I am planning a trip with my girlfriend this winter to USA and was
wondering if anyone could help with the specifics. We have 3 weeks
available and are traveling on extreme budget - would like this trip to
cost less around 1200$ USD per person (for travel and board
expenses - including a flight from Europe).

Ideally, what we would like in those 3 weeks is to drive across
USA - from New York to Los Angeles (or Las Vegas - depending
where we end our tour). We would like to go from New York to
Toronto and then to Detroit (personal reasons). The only other sites
we know we would like to visit are Las Vegas and Los Angeles +
possibly national parks like Death Valley and/or Yosemite and/or
Grand Canyon. We would require elp with in-between sights along
the way - we would like to get a feel of small town America as well,
get to know the traditional as well as the modern. We look for
diversity - from shopping, culture, nature, adventure, food, etc.

We realize our budget is tight, but we are flexible in execution and
will listen to any suggestions. So - we would like our per-person
limit to include the following expenses:

1.) international flight ticket ideally from Stuttgart, Germany
(Munich is also an option if it brings down the price) to New
York. And the return one from Los Angeles or Las Vegas
(depending where our tour ends) back to Stuttgart/Munich.

2.) a rent-a-car available to us for the duration of our stay.
Pick up in New York - drop off in Los Angeles or Las
Vegas (depending where our tour ends).

3.) planned accommodation in cities/places along our tour path.
(breakfast is optional, we can eat out - we really just need
places to sleep through the night - as we'll probably be
sightseeing during the day... hostels or small or private
boarding places are ok - as long as they are nice/clean)

Do you guys think this would be possible given our budget? 3
weeks to do New York to Los Angeles.... any highly regarded
travel agent or agency out there specialising in prepackaged
tours similar to what we want?

Any help would be appreciated!

bfree (AT) hi (DOT) htnet (DOT) hr

[Miriam P.]

Post by Tapa
I am planning a trip with my girlfriend this winter to USA and was
wondering if anyone could help with the specifics. We have 3 weeks
available and are traveling on extreme budget - would like this trip to
cost less around 1200$ USD per person (for travel and board
expenses - including a flight from Europe).
Ideally, what we would like in those 3 weeks is to drive across
USA - from New York to Los Angeles (or Las Vegas - depending
where we end our tour). We would like to go from New York to
Toronto and then to Detroit (personal reasons). The only other sites
we know we would like to visit are Las Vegas and Los Angeles +
possibly national parks like Death Valley and/or Yosemite and/or
Grand Canyon. We would require elp with in-between sights along
the way - we would like to get a feel of small town America as well,
get to know the traditional as well as the modern. We look for
diversity - from shopping, culture, nature, adventure, food, etc.
We realize our budget is tight, but we are flexible in execution and
will listen to any suggestions. So - we would like our per-person
1.) international flight ticket ideally from Stuttgart, Germany
(Munich is also an option if it brings down the price) to New
York. And the return one from Los Angeles or Las Vegas
(depending where our tour ends) back to Stuttgart/Munich.
2.) a rent-a-car available to us for the duration of our stay.
Pick up in New York - drop off in Los Angeles or Las
Vegas (depending where our tour ends).
3.) planned accommodation in cities/places along our tour path.
(breakfast is optional, we can eat out - we really just need
places to sleep through the night - as we'll probably be
sightseeing during the day... hostels or small or private
boarding places are ok - as long as they are nice/clean)
Do you guys think this would be possible given our budget? 3
weeks to do New York to Los Angeles.... any highly regarded
travel agent or agency out there specialising in prepackaged
tours similar to what we want?
Any help would be appreciated!
bfree (AT) hi (DOT) htnet (DOT) hr

I think you are not being realistic. Just gasoline could cost
you $1200! I'm sure someone will break down a more specific
cost sheet for you .... but be prepared to spend at least
3 times of your original amount.

Good Luck!

Miriam

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by Miriam P.

Post by Tapa
I am planning a trip with my girlfriend this winter to USA and was
wondering if anyone could help with the specifics. We have 3 weeks
available and are traveling on extreme budget - would like this trip to
cost less around 1200$ USD per person (for travel and board
expenses - including a flight from Europe).
Ideally, what we would like in those 3 weeks is to drive across
USA - from New York to Los Angeles (or Las Vegas - depending
where we end our tour). We would like to go from New York to
Toronto and then to Detroit (personal reasons). The only other sites
we know we would like to visit are Las Vegas and Los Angeles +
possibly national parks like Death Valley and/or Yosemite and/or
Grand Canyon. We would require elp with in-between sights along
the way - we would like to get a feel of small town America as well,
get to know the traditional as well as the modern. We look for
diversity - from shopping, culture, nature, adventure, food, etc.
We realize our budget is tight, but we are flexible in execution and
will listen to any suggestions. So - we would like our per-person
1.) international flight ticket ideally from Stuttgart, Germany
(Munich is also an option if it brings down the price) to New
York. And the return one from Los Angeles or Las Vegas
(depending where our tour ends) back to Stuttgart/Munich.
2.) a rent-a-car available to us for the duration of our stay.
Pick up in New York - drop off in Los Angeles or Las
Vegas (depending where our tour ends).
3.) planned accommodation in cities/places along our tour path.
(breakfast is optional, we can eat out - we really just need
places to sleep through the night - as we'll probably be
sightseeing during the day... hostels or small or private
boarding places are ok - as long as they are nice/clean)
Do you guys think this would be possible given our budget? 3
weeks to do New York to Los Angeles.... any highly regarded
travel agent or agency out there specialising in prepackaged
tours similar to what we want?
Any help would be appreciated!
bfree (AT) hi (DOT) htnet (DOT) hr

I think you are not being realistic. Just gasoline could cost
you $1200! I'm sure someone will break down a more specific
cost sheet for you .... but be prepared to spend at least
3 times of your original amount.

$1200 in three weeks of driving for just petrol? What are you driving, a
school bus?

[Dave C.]

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Miriam P.
I think you are not being realistic. Just gasoline could cost
you $1200! I'm sure someone will break down a more specific
cost sheet for you .... but be prepared to spend at least
3 times of your original amount.

$1200 in three weeks of driving for just petrol? What are you driving, a
school bus?

No, he's got a valid point. The $1200 is supposed to include round trip
plane tickets. That means they will have about half left, if they are
lucky. So let's say $600 per person. At least $400 is going to be spent on
fuel, figuring somewhere between 4000-5000 total miles (don't forget the
driving cross country won't be straight through, there will be many side
trips) at 25MPG* and $2.00 per gallon. So now they are down to $400 per
person for three weeks of travel. If they only spend ten bucks a day each
on food, they are already over budget. They haven't even paid one penny
toward lodging or RENTAL CAR, not to mention TOLLS.

There's another huge glitch . . . where can you get a rental car that can be
driven out of the state it was rented in? Most of the major rental car
agencies I'm aware of have language in the contract specifically prohibiting
that. SOME of them even track by GPS. If you take it out of state, you get
hit with huge fines that are charged PER MILE. This trip, the out-of-state
penalties could add up to more than the cost of a new car, quite
asily. -Dave

* A cheap rental car might do better, but let's be realistic here. If they
can't afford it at 25MPG, then they can't afford it at 30MPG or 35MPG,
either.

[CC Bailey]

Post by Dave C.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Miriam P.
I think you are not being realistic. Just gasoline could cost
you $1200! I'm sure someone will break down a more specific
cost sheet for you .... but be prepared to spend at least
3 times of your original amount.

$1200 in three weeks of driving for just petrol? What are you driving, a
school bus?

No, he's got a valid point. The $1200 is supposed to include round trip
plane tickets. That means they will have about half left, if they are
lucky. So let's say $600 per person. At least $400 is going to be spent on
fuel, figuring somewhere between 4000-5000 total miles (don't forget the
driving cross country won't be straight through, there will be many side
trips) at 25MPG* and $2.00 per gallon. So now they are down to $400 per
person for three weeks of travel. If they only spend ten bucks a day each
on food, they are already over budget. They haven't even paid one penny
toward lodging or RENTAL CAR, not to mention TOLLS.
There's another huge glitch . . . where can you get a rental car that can be
driven out of the state it was rented in? Most of the major rental car
agencies I'm aware of have language in the contract specifically prohibiting
that. SOME of them even track by GPS. If you take it out of state, you get
hit with huge fines that are charged PER MILE. This trip, the out-of-state
penalties could add up to more than the cost of a new car, quite
asily. -Dave
* A cheap rental car might do better, but let's be realistic here. If they
can't afford it at 25MPG, then they can't afford it at 30MPG or 35MPG,
either.

I agree that the gas costs could eat up about $400, but I have to
disagree about not being able to take the car out of the rental state.
I've rented from several different major rental companies and all have
allowed out-of-state travel. I've rented from Hertz, Budget and Avis.

The companies that I know of that don't allow out-of-state travel are
the smaller companies, such as "Rent-A-Wreck" and "Fox Rental". (Fox is
based in the southwest region of the US.)

[Helen C]

If I might make a suggestion:

If you decide to travel across the US, frequent truckstops. There you can
take a shower for about $5, do your laundry, eat reasonably cheaply, etc.
Talk to some truck drivers (maybe even contact a trucking company as
possible tourist/passengers? Tell them you're writing a book about trucks
in America) BUT, do not stop at one where there aren't that many trucks
(good indication of poor service) You'll get lots of tips on where to go
along the roads, places to avoid and the like. If you can, and aren't
offended by people with limited vocabulary that are more than willing to
advertise it, you will get a lot of info about america via this medium.

HTH,

Helen C (used to could drive a truck coast to coast)

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by Helen C
If you decide to travel across the US, frequent truckstops. There you can
take a shower for about $5, do your laundry, eat reasonably cheaply, etc.
Talk to some truck drivers (maybe even contact a trucking company as
possible tourist/passengers?

Maybe she could take some tips from Bruno S in Herzog's "Stroszek". Was
denkst Du?

Post by Helen C
Tell them you're writing a book about trucks
in America) BUT, do not stop at one where there aren't that many trucks
(good indication of poor service) You'll get lots of tips on where to go
along the roads, places to avoid and the like. If you can, and aren't
offended by people with limited vocabulary that are more than willing to
advertise it, you will get a lot of info about america via this medium.

Tell them your favourite Spielberg movie is "Duel".

[Barbara Bomberger]

Post by Dave C.
* A cheap rental car might do better, but let's be realistic here. If they
can't afford it at 25MPG, then they can't afford it at 30MPG or 35MPG,
either.

I have driven rental cars across the country. I did have to tell them
I was doing so and do a "point to point rental. But it was not a
major deal

Barb

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by Barbara Bomberger

Post by Dave C.
* A cheap rental car might do better, but let's be realistic here. If they
can't afford it at 25MPG, then they can't afford it at 30MPG or 35MPG,
either.

I have driven rental cars across the country. I did have to tell them
I was doing so and do a "point to point rental. But it was not a
major deal

Ask Joel about "open jaw".

[Barbara Bomberger]

On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 22:05:47 -0700, "Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Miriam P.

Post by Tapa
Do you guys think this would be possible given our budget? 3
weeks to do New York to Los Angeles.... any highly regarded
travel agent or agency out there specialising in prepackaged
tours similar to what we want?
Any help would be appreciated!
bfree (AT) hi (DOT) htnet (DOT) hr

I think you are not being realistic. Just gasoline could cost
you $1200! I'm sure someone will break down a more specific
cost sheet for you .... but be prepared to spend at least
3 times of your original amount.

$1200 in three weeks of driving for just petrol? What are you driving, a
school bus?

I understood the poster to say the twelve hundred was to include plane
tickets. Unless I miss my guess, they will eat up over half of that.

Barb

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
--

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by Barbara Bomberger
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 22:05:47 -0700, "Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Miriam P.

Post by Tapa
Do you guys think this would be possible given our budget? 3
weeks to do New York to Los Angeles.... any highly regarded
travel agent or agency out there specialising in prepackaged
tours similar to what we want?
Any help would be appreciated!
bfree (AT) hi (DOT) htnet (DOT) hr

I think you are not being realistic. Just gasoline could cost
you $1200! I'm sure someone will break down a more specific
cost sheet for you .... but be prepared to spend at least
3 times of your original amount.

$1200 in three weeks of driving for just petrol? What are you driving, a
school bus?

I understood the poster to say the twelve hundred was to include plane
tickets. Unless I miss my guess, they will eat up over half of that.

The original poster, Heidi van Hinderland, I think it was, did say that.
I was replying to the poster I was replying to, not Fräulein Frieda or
even Heinrich Hissiefit. The poster I was replying to claimed that the
cost of petrol alone could be $1200. Do hope that helps, Barbara
Bomberger.

[PaPaPeng]

Post by Tapa
I am planning a trip with my girlfriend this winter to USA and was
wondering if anyone could help with the specifics. We have 3 weeks
available and are traveling on extreme budget - would like this trip to
cost less around 1200$ USD per person (for travel and board
expenses - including a flight from Europe).

The basic advice is your plan won't work. Not enough money. Your
itinery is way, way over ambitious.

The best way to spend a vacation in America is to pick a more
manageable place you want to see. A week each in Boston, New York,
and Washington is doable although still a very cramped schedule. Try
to find some form of cheap hostel type accommodation for students. I
have never used one but I understand they exist. Do most of your
sightseeing on foot and by public transit. Parking fees will kill you
and you might not even find one in the first place. That is you may
spend hous creeping through downtown traffic and still have to park
miles away and come back by transit. By being on foot you can get to
talk to the natives and this is a far more rewarding experience than
trying to cover the maximum number of tourist sites.


I did drive all the way from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada to Washington,
New York, Montreal and back home. 4 weeks. 1989. To Minneapolis and
back 1995. Lots of "shorter" road trips to midwest America. But 1995
was my last road trip.

1. North America is one helleva big continent.
2. In a mid western state it takes at least 8 hours to cross from the
west to the east state line.
3. The Interstate highways are made for fast interstate traffic and
there is little to see from the highway other than pretty homogenous
industrial type buildings and hotels and uninspiring scenery. It is
very easy to spot a sign pointing to an interesting local sight but
you will zip right past it and not want to go back becuase the next
exit is miles away and you likely will not know where to turn back
again. The designated tourist sights are miles apart, each being a
daytrip in itself. You can't stay off the Interstate if you are
trying to get from one town to another. Its very easy to get lost.
4. After the third day you will find on entering and leaving each
town and city that they look pretty much the same. The garish
MacDonalds, motels and hotels, the pizza joints, some tiny strip mall
businesses and so on. The best shops are in the richer suburban
shopping malls and districts. Again, after visiting three or so such
places they are all pretty much the same and carry the same
merchandise.
5. Restaurant food is relatively cheap and they serve large portions.
If you are not used to them, after 5 days of restaurant food you will
feel like puking.
6. Most city centers are dead after 6 pm and dangerous (muggings) to
hang around to boot. During business hours they are not that
interesting because unless you have some business office to visit.
The best shops have moved out to the suburbs. In any city I visit I
usually chat up the city librarians about local scenes. They are
often at a loss as to what to see in their city. Locals with decent
jobs just do not stick around downtown after work. You have to
discover things for yourself the slow patient way.
7. If you have the impression that America is like what you read
about in National Geographic then you have to focus on exactly what
and where you want to go and stick around there to discover the local
atmosphere. Your idea of covering the continent coast to coast in
three weeks won't get you anywhere except exhaustion.
8. Many national park sights are closed in winter. It is dangerous
for you to go to remote (out of the way) places alone because if you
have a car breakdown of some other problem you probably won't know how
to get out of trouble and they may not be any help around. Since you
are on a tight budget you can't afford any problems.
9. I did my tours on the cheap by sleeping in my light truck parked
at highway rest stops that have restrooms, gas stations, restaurants
and shops, and most of all, lots of vehicles and people around. I
bought it (Nissan Kingcab) because its seats could fold back to form a
decent bed. I also did my tour in summer. Its too cold to sleep in
the car in winter. Every few days when I would have developed a
"crick in the neck" I would get a motel room to get a good rest.
10. It was summer. For showers I went to the public swimming pool and
it was a good way to stretch and relax my muscles too. You can't do
this in winter.

There are lots more I can tell. The basic advice is even New York
itself is a pretty big place that can easily absorb a whole three
weeks and you still won't have seen a fraction of it. Be a lot more
modest in your expectations on your first visit to the States. Its a
humongous place.

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by PaPaPeng

Post by Tapa
I am planning a trip with my girlfriend this winter to USA and was
wondering if anyone could help with the specifics. We have 3 weeks
available and are traveling on extreme budget - would like this trip to
cost less around 1200$ USD per person (for travel and board
expenses - including a flight from Europe).

The basic advice is your plan won't work. Not enough money. Your
itinery is way, way over ambitious.

<snipped good stuff>

Such a trip plan is _totally_ unrealistic. Since the U.S. is about 3000 miles
across, and the best anyone can hope for as an average travel speed (with
minimal stops) is 50 mph. That means that at least one week of the three is
spent just doing butt aching driving and staring at pavement. Sure you can
drive longer days and at night to give more time sightseeing, and sure some of
the time you might be travelling at 75mph (usually illegally and at an expense
in added gas costs), but sights worth seeing often involve delays, lines,
crowded slow street traffic, etc. and may not be convenient distances apart.

Back in 1963, my brother and I did a fairly fast summer tour of the U.S. in
about five weeks on $1,000 total. Gas was maybe 30 cents per gallon back then,
compared to $2 per gallon now. We travelled in an gas sipping MGB and camped
out or stayed with friends. By the time we were 3/4 of the way through we were
tired and nearly out of money. With inflation, a similar trip today would cost
at least $4,000.

Travelling in the winter pretty much rules out camping except along the extreme
southern border, and a lot of attractions are closed during winter months. The
high gas prices would dictate the use of a motorcycle or sub-sub compact car,
both of which would be miserable and dangerous in the winter on interstate
highways.

Then there is the problem of just getting into the U.S.. Since the inception
of anti-terrorist measures, we are not a foreign tourist friendly nation. Some
quiet and established folks who have been coming to Florida on vacation for
years have been denied entry into the country for no apparent reason. Homeland
security is going to laugh at the application of an unmarried couple that want
to come into the country and spend considerably less than $2400 between them on
a three week tour. The background checks would probably cost more than the
money spent on the tour.

For the money, the couple is better off touring the internet for webcams of the
U.S.:
<http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newyork/timessquare/>
<http://www.earthcam.com/usa/dc/metrosquare/>

or getting a viewmaster and travel videos.

Say, this might be an opportunity for someone to sell their old mind-numbing
vacation slides and videos.

[Tapa]

Post by h***@hotmail.com
Such a trip plan is _totally_ unrealistic. Since the U.S. is about
3000 miles across, and the best anyone can hope for as an average
travel speed (with minimal stops) is 50 mph. That means that at
least one week of the three is spent just doing butt aching driving
and staring at pavement. Sure you can drive longer days and at
night to give more time sightseeing, and sure some of the time you
might be travelling at 75mph (usually illegally and at an expense
in added gas costs), but sights worth seeing often involve delays,
lines, crowded slow street traffic, etc. and may not be convenient
distances apart.

Well, there are plenty of bus sightseeing tours following the same
route (minus Toronto/Detroit, but they add Washington) within a
3 week time-frame. I do however acknowledge that it is a lot of
ground to cover, we have no illusions about that and I do know
that speed limits in the US are particularly low.

Post by h***@hotmail.com
years have been denied entry into the country for no apparent
reason. Homeland security is going to laugh at the application
of an unmarried couple that want to come into the country and
spend considerably less than $2400 between them on a three
week tour. The background checks would probably cost more
than the money spent on the tour.
For the money, the couple is better off touring the internet for
webcams of the U.S.: or getting a viewmaster and travel videos.
Say, this might be an opportunity for someone to sell their old
mind-numbing vacation slides and videos.

Oh how very nice of you - I'm sure that those comments help a
lot with your country's tourism.

We have not been to US after 9/11, however this is not our first
time there so we should pass security just fine - not to mention
that we study full-time in some of the finest colleges in Germany.

As for your other comments regarding finances - you can check
out my reply in another thread - and not that I have any particular
need to explain myself to someone as kind as you - but like I said,
those 2400$ are just for travel (tickets and rentals) and
accommodation expenses only. We fully expect to spend at least a
total of 4000$ for this trip - but it will probably be around 5k...
I'd think that students willing to spend over 100$ per person per
day would be welcomed in any country, no matter what their
background security checks cost...

[Joel M. Eichen]

Post by Tapa

Post by h***@hotmail.com
Such a trip plan is _totally_ unrealistic. Since the U.S. is about
3000 miles across, and the best anyone can hope for as an average
travel speed (with minimal stops) is 50 mph. That means that at
least one week of the three is spent just doing butt aching driving
and staring at pavement. Sure you can drive longer days and at
night to give more time sightseeing, and sure some of the time you
might be travelling at 75mph (usually illegally and at an expense
in added gas costs), but sights worth seeing often involve delays,
lines, crowded slow street traffic, etc. and may not be convenient
distances apart.

Well, there are plenty of bus sightseeing tours following the same
route (minus Toronto/Detroit, but they add Washington) within a
3 week time-frame. I do however acknowledge that it is a lot of
ground to cover, we have no illusions about that and I do know
that speed limits in the US are particularly low.

Does Greyhound still have a monthly pass?

They have bathrooms on board, but no showers so you will have to do
your clothes elsewhere.

Joel

Post by Tapa

Post by h***@hotmail.com
years have been denied entry into the country for no apparent
reason. Homeland security is going to laugh at the application
of an unmarried couple that want to come into the country and
spend considerably less than $2400 between them on a three
week tour. The background checks would probably cost more
than the money spent on the tour.
For the money, the couple is better off touring the internet for
webcams of the U.S.: or getting a viewmaster and travel videos.
Say, this might be an opportunity for someone to sell their old
mind-numbing vacation slides and videos.

Oh how very nice of you - I'm sure that those comments help a
lot with your country's tourism.
We have not been to US after 9/11, however this is not our first
time there so we should pass security just fine - not to mention
that we study full-time in some of the finest colleges in Germany.
As for your other comments regarding finances - you can check
out my reply in another thread - and not that I have any particular
need to explain myself to someone as kind as you - but like I said,
those 2400$ are just for travel (tickets and rentals) and
accommodation expenses only. We fully expect to spend at least a
total of 4000$ for this trip - but it will probably be around 5k...
I'd think that students willing to spend over 100$ per person per
day would be welcomed in any country, no matter what their
background security checks cost...

[The Real Bev]

Post by Joel M. Eichen

Post by Tapa

Post by h***@hotmail.com
Such a trip plan is _totally_ unrealistic. Since the U.S. is about
3000 miles across, and the best anyone can hope for as an average
travel speed (with minimal stops) is 50 mph. That means that at
least one week of the three is spent just doing butt aching driving
and staring at pavement. Sure you can drive longer days and at
night to give more time sightseeing, and sure some of the time you
might be travelling at 75mph (usually illegally and at an expense
in added gas costs), but sights worth seeing often involve delays,
lines, crowded slow street traffic, etc. and may not be convenient
distances apart.

Well, there are plenty of bus sightseeing tours following the same
route (minus Toronto/Detroit, but they add Washington) within a
3 week time-frame. I do however acknowledge that it is a lot of
ground to cover, we have no illusions about that and I do know
that speed limits in the US are particularly low.

Have you ever taken a bus sightseeing tour? Do you like being herded
from place to place in the company of strangers, never being permitted
to go off and check out what YOU might find interesting? No, I've never
taken a bus tour, but I've heard stories. I can't imagine enjoying even
a GOOD one. YMMV.

Post by Joel M. Eichen
Does Greyhound still have a monthly pass?
They have bathrooms on board, but no showers so you will have to do
your clothes elsewhere.

Son traveled from Detroit to L.A. and back again by Greyhound perhaps 15
years ago. Schedules were untrustworthy and he spent at least one whole
day per trip just waiting to make various connections. Bus stations
really aren't all that interesting.

Post by Joel M. Eichen

Post by Tapa

Post by h***@hotmail.com
years have been denied entry into the country for no apparent
reason. Homeland security is going to laugh at the application
of an unmarried couple that want to come into the country and
spend considerably less than $2400 between them on a three
week tour. The background checks would probably cost more
than the money spent on the tour.
For the money, the couple is better off touring the internet for
webcams of the U.S.: or getting a viewmaster and travel videos.
Say, this might be an opportunity for someone to sell their old
mind-numbing vacation slides and videos.

Oh how very nice of you - I'm sure that those comments help a
lot with your country's tourism.

He was intending to be helpful, so you should probably take it in the
spirit intended. There is a LOT of extra security crap going on and
just because you're upstanding German students with a little money to
spend it doesn't mean that there won't be problems.

Post by Joel M. Eichen

Post by Tapa
We have not been to US after 9/11, however this is not our first
time there so we should pass security just fine - not to mention
that we study full-time in some of the finest colleges in Germany.
As for your other comments regarding finances - you can check
out my reply in another thread - and not that I have any particular
need to explain myself to someone as kind as you - but like I said,
those 2400$ are just for travel (tickets and rentals) and
accommodation expenses only. We fully expect to spend at least a
total of 4000$ for this trip - but it will probably be around 5k...
I'd think that students willing to spend over 100$ per person per
day would be welcomed in any country, no matter what their
background security checks cost...

I don't think the security people care much about how much you're going
to spend here, but I could be wrong. The security industry and the
tourism industry don't have many common goals.

Do you actually want to go to USA cities? All cities are pretty much
the same. Good places to buy what you need and look at the oldest
buildings around, but that's about it. What IS interesting and
different about the USA is the variety of geologic features -- most of
which are in the western half of the country. I would assume that you
would like to see things that are very different from what you're used
to, and that definitely means west of the Mississippi, except for the
area around New Orleans.

USA essentials for the European tourist:

Death Valley, Yosemite, Carlsbad Caverns, Grand Canyon, Craters of the
Moon, Monument Valley, Capitol Reef, Bryce, Zion, the Rockies (the
Canadian Rockies are better, but ours are definitely higher than the
Alps), the Oregon coast, maybe Lava Beds. Those are my favorites,
anyway. Interstates are only good for fast travel through areas of
little interest (like the midwest, mostly). US and state roads are
perfectly adquate and far more interesting.

It's entirely possible to do long cheap road trips buying only gas and
food -- sleep in your car, bathe in convenient rivers and streams, and
do your laundry (if necessary) in a laundromat. It's even fun, even
with small children.

[Andrew White]

Post by The Real Bev
Son traveled from Detroit to L.A. and back again by Greyhound perhaps 15
years ago. Schedules were untrustworthy and he spent at least one whole
day per trip just waiting to make various connections. Bus stations
really aren't all that interesting.

And most of them are downright dangerous!

[Rod Speed]

Post by Andrew White

Post by The Real Bev
Son traveled from Detroit to L.A. and back again by Greyhound perhaps 15
years ago. Schedules were untrustworthy and he spent at least one whole
day per trip just waiting to make various connections. Bus stations
really aren't all that interesting.

And most of them are downright dangerous!

Only for the pathetic neurotics.

[Andrew White]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Andrew White

Post by The Real Bev
Son traveled from Detroit to L.A. and back again by Greyhound perhaps 15
years ago. Schedules were untrustworthy and he spent at least one whole
day per trip just waiting to make various connections. Bus stations
really aren't all that interesting.

And most of them are downright dangerous!

Only for the pathetic neurotics.

No, only for realists who have seen with their own eyes what kind of
people routinely frequent bus stations. Drugs and alcohol are way to
common at some bus stations, like the New York one.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Andrew White

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Andrew White

Post by The Real Bev
Son traveled from Detroit to L.A. and back again by Greyhound
perhaps 15 years ago. Schedules were untrustworthy and he
spent at least one whole day per trip just waiting to make various
connections. Bus stations really aren't all that interesting.

And most of them are downright dangerous!

Only for the pathetic neurotics.

No,

Yep.

Post by Andrew White
only for realists who have seen with their own eyes
what kind of people routinely frequent bus stations.

Only the pathetic neurotics start gnawing
their fingernails about stuff like that.

Post by Andrew White
Drugs and alcohol are way to common at some bus stations,

Even more common in the places that sell alcohol.

Most of us realise that its possible to survive them.

Post by Andrew White
like the New York one.

Even you must have noticed the cops there too etc.

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Andrew White
only for realists who have seen with their own eyes
what kind of people routinely frequent bus stations.

Only the pathetic neurotics start gnawing
their fingernails about stuff like that.

There's some stuff dainty flesh should never see.

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Andrew White
Drugs and alcohol are way to common at some bus stations,

Even more common in the places that sell alcohol.
Most of us realise that its possible to survive them.

I don't even want to touch the bench those people sat on.

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Andrew White
like the New York one.

Even you must have noticed the cops there too etc.

They were too busy with the crazy women who'd defecated in her trousers
and just had to get on *that* bus, no ticket in hand.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Andrew White
only for realists who have seen with their own eyes
what kind of people routinely frequent bus stations.

Only the pathetic neurotics start gnawing
their fingernails about stuff like that.

There's some stuff dainty flesh should never see.

Crap.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Andrew White
Drugs and alcohol are way to common at some bus stations,

Even more common in the places that sell alcohol.
Most of us realise that its possible to survive them.

I don't even want to touch the bench those people sat on.

More mindlessly silly neurotic fears.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Andrew White
like the New York one.

Even you must have noticed the cops there too etc.

They were too busy with the crazy women who'd defecated in
her trousers and just had to get on *that* bus, no ticket in hand.

They'd soon have stopped bothering about her if one
of the other loons was a real problem for anyone else.

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Andrew White
only for realists who have seen with their own eyes
what kind of people routinely frequent bus stations.

Only the pathetic neurotics start gnawing
their fingernails about stuff like that.

There's some stuff dainty flesh should never see.

Crap.

That's one of the things, yes.

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Andrew White
Drugs and alcohol are way to common at some bus stations,

Even more common in the places that sell alcohol.
Most of us realise that its possible to survive them.

I don't even want to touch the bench those people sat on.

More mindlessly silly neurotic fears.

I think you should visit the Spokane terminal for yourself, porc chop.

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Andrew White
like the New York one.

Even you must have noticed the cops there too etc.

They were too busy with the crazy women who'd defecated in
her trousers and just had to get on *that* bus, no ticket in hand.

They'd soon have stopped bothering about her if one
of the other loons was a real problem for anyone else.

You ever see "COPS"? This women would've easily made it on that show if
anyone had a video camera. I don't know what flipped her out, probably
used some of those drugs that guy was trying to sell me.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Andrew White
only for realists who have seen with their own eyes
what kind of people routinely frequent bus stations.

Only the pathetic neurotics start gnawing
their fingernails about stuff like that.

There's some stuff dainty flesh should never see.

Crap.

That's one of the things, yes.

So who do you propose handles the bedpans in hospitals etc ?

Only the gung ho flesh like the Real Bev ?

Bet she'd have you Bobbitted in a flash if you
were ever stupid enough to say that to her face.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Andrew White
Drugs and alcohol are way to common at some bus stations,

Even more common in the places that sell alcohol.
Most of us realise that its possible to survive them.

I don't even want to touch the bench those people sat on.

More mindlessly silly neurotic fears.

I think you should visit the Spokane terminal for yourself

Been there, done that. I didnt curl up and die or anything.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Andrew White
like the New York one.

Even you must have noticed the cops there too etc.

They were too busy with the crazy women who'd defecated in
her trousers and just had to get on *that* bus, no ticket in hand.

They'd soon have stopped bothering about her if one
of the other loons was a real problem for anyone else.

You ever see "COPS"?

Yep.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
This women would've easily made it on that show if anyone
had a video camera. I don't know what flipped her out, probably
used some of those drugs that guy was trying to sell me.

Or she was just another fruit loop that we
dont bother to keep in padded cells anymore.

[George]

Post by Andrew White
No, only for realists who have seen with their own eyes what kind of
people routinely frequent bus stations. Drugs and alcohol are way to
common at some bus stations, like the New York one.

Used to be common would be a better statement. NYC people got sick of that
and associated issues and hired Giuliani. We were just there last week and I
always think about the amazing difference compared to 10 years ago.

[Joel M. Eichen]

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 22:42:45 -0400, Andrew White

Post by Andrew White

Post by The Real Bev
Son traveled from Detroit to L.A. and back again by Greyhound perhaps 15
years ago. Schedules were untrustworthy and he spent at least one whole
day per trip just waiting to make various connections. Bus stations
really aren't all that interesting.

And most of them are downright dangerous!

STAY OUT of the men's room!

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by The Real Bev

Post by Joel M. Eichen
They have bathrooms on board, but no showers so you will have to do
your clothes elsewhere.

Son traveled from Detroit to L.A. and back again by Greyhound perhaps 15
years ago. Schedules were untrustworthy and he spent at least one whole
day per trip just waiting to make various connections. Bus stations
really aren't all that interesting.

Spokane bus terminal at 1am was very interesting. Several people tried
to sell me illegal drugs. Some crazy lady who'd obviously used her
drawers for a latrine was damned determined to get on that bus. The cops
had their hands full of that crap.

[dr. dig]

I agree.

And in the west the most enjoyable road trips I've taken are
in southern Utah, east to west.


On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:07:07 -0700, The Real Bev

Post by The Real Bev
What IS interesting and
different about the USA is the variety of geologic features -- most of
which are in the western half of the country.

[The Real Bev]

Post by dr. dig
I agree.
And in the west the most enjoyable road trips I've taken are
in southern Utah, east to west.

Capitol Reef to Mexican Hat and back on a motorcycle. As close to
heaven as we're likely to get. If you have a dual-sport machine it
would be even better. Take lots of gas.

Post by dr. dig
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:07:07 -0700, The Real Bev

Post by The Real Bev
What IS interesting and
different about the USA is the variety of geologic features -- most of
which are in the western half of the country.

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by Joel M. Eichen

Post by Tapa

Post by h***@hotmail.com
Such a trip plan is _totally_ unrealistic. Since the U.S. is about
3000 miles across, and the best anyone can hope for as an average
travel speed (with minimal stops) is 50 mph. That means that at
least one week of the three is spent just doing butt aching driving
and staring at pavement. Sure you can drive longer days and at
night to give more time sightseeing, and sure some of the time you
might be travelling at 75mph (usually illegally and at an expense
in added gas costs), but sights worth seeing often involve delays,
lines, crowded slow street traffic, etc. and may not be convenient
distances apart.

Well, there are plenty of bus sightseeing tours following the same
route (minus Toronto/Detroit, but they add Washington) within a
3 week time-frame. I do however acknowledge that it is a lot of
ground to cover, we have no illusions about that and I do know
that speed limits in the US are particularly low.

Does Greyhound still have a monthly pass?
They have bathrooms on board, but no showers so you will have to do
your clothes elsewhere.

People who ride Greyhound need to be told not to leak in the corner.

[Raleighgirl]

A bus tour is a good idea. Look at
http://www.greentortoise.com/. It's a company that is devoted to
low cost tourism.

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by Tapa
Oh how very nice of you - I'm sure that those comments help a
lot with your country's tourism.

I'm sure those comments have no effect on anything. In any event, I'm just
telling it like it is. When peace singers like C.S. rate a special debarkation
and trip back out of the country, you can safely guess that attitudes have
changed.

Post by Tapa
We have not been to US after 9/11, however this is not our first
time there so we should pass security just fine - not to mention
that we study full-time in some of the finest colleges in Germany.

If you do try to visit, I am interested in your comments on the process.

[George]

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Tapa
Oh how very nice of you - I'm sure that those comments help a
lot with your country's tourism.

I'm sure those comments have no effect on anything. In any event, I'm just
telling it like it is. When peace singers like C.S. rate a special debarkation
and trip back out of the country, you can safely guess that attitudes have
changed.

Could it be that he was supporting the extremists of his religion with his
money and status? If members of a religious group vow to kill you and other
members of the group do not speak out and actively work against that idea
then how should we handle it?

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by Tapa
We have not been to US after 9/11, however this is not our first
time there so we should pass security just fine - not to mention
that we study full-time in some of the finest colleges in Germany.

If you do try to visit, I am interested in your comments on the process.

[h***@hotmail.com]

Post by George
Could it be that he was supporting the extremists of his religion with his
money and status? If members of a religious group vow to kill you and other
members of the group do not speak out and actively work against that idea
then how should we handle it?

He did support the Rushdie fatwah, but said the statement of his support was
taken out of context. That was a pretty disgusting bit of intolerance for him
to agree with, but it was a while back. If there is anything else, it must be
very deeply hidden for the press not to be screaming it in headlines.

I more suspect that his status is just the result of bureaucratic bungling and
wet dreams of imaginary weapons of mass destruction by people who never cared
much for his singing anyway. Remember that he didn't get along with the
gung-ho guys that wanted more involvement in Vietnam.

Consider how much of a magnet to those who subscribe to the far right the Dept
of Homeland Security must be right now, and how many of those folks get to make
decisions like this. Think their views might be a little skewed? I'd be
willing to bet that in the inner sanctum halls, there are only right turns, the
left turns having been banned as unpatriotic. Would these people cheerfully
let a hippy peace singer back into the country, especially after he changed
religions? I think not.

[zap]

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by George
Could it be that he was supporting the extremists of his religion
with his money and status? If members of a religious group vow
to kill you and other members of the group do not speak out and
actively work against that idea then how should we handle it?

He did support the Rushdie fatwah,

Gotta be why he got the bums rush.

Post by h***@hotmail.com
but said the statement of his support was taken out of context.

Corse he would say that...

Post by h***@hotmail.com
That was a pretty disgusting bit of intolerance
for him to agree with, but it was a while back.

Obviously why he got the bums rush tho.

Post by h***@hotmail.com
If there is anything else, it must be very deeply hidden
for the press not to be screaming it in headlines.

Or the press hardly ever has a clue about the basics.

Post by h***@hotmail.com
I more suspect that his status is just the result of bureaucratic bungling

I doubt it with that Rushdie stuff.

Good excuse to give him the bums rush basically.

Post by h***@hotmail.com
and wet dreams of imaginary weapons of mass destruction
by people who never cared much for his singing anyway.

Nothing to do with his singing, just dont like him.

Post by h***@hotmail.com
Remember that he didn't get along with the gung-ho
guys that wanted more involvement in Vietnam.

I doubt anyone cares anymore.

Post by h***@hotmail.com
Consider how much of a magnet to those who subscribe
to the far right the Dept of Homeland Security must be right
now, and how many of those folks get to make decisions
like this. Think their views might be a little skewed?

Who cares if they play safe ?

Arseholes like that get to wear the consequences of their actions.

Post by h***@hotmail.com
I'd be willing to bet that in the inner sanctum halls, there are
only right turns, the left turns having been banned as unpatriotic.

You'll end up blind if you dont watch out.

Post by h***@hotmail.com
Would these people cheerfully let a hippy peace singer

Who supports fatwahs ? Yeah, right.

Post by h***@hotmail.com
back into the country, especially after
he changed religions? I think not.

You did manage to get that last sentence right.

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by h***@hotmail.com

Post by George
Could it be that he was supporting the extremists of his religion with his
money and status? If members of a religious group vow to kill you and other
members of the group do not speak out and actively work against that idea
then how should we handle it?

He did support the Rushdie fatwah, but said the statement of his support was
taken out of context. That was a pretty disgusting bit of intolerance for him
to agree with, but it was a while back. If there is anything else, it must be
very deeply hidden for the press not to be screaming it in headlines.

There's the donations to Hamas, I think it was.

[Geoff Miller]

Post by h***@hotmail.com
I more suspect that his status is just the result of bureaucratic
bungling and wet dreams of imaginary weapons of mass destruction
by people who never cared much for his singing anyway. Remember
that he didn't get along with the gung-ho guys that wanted more
involvement in Vietnam.

Actually, he didn't have any special status. He was mistaken for
somebody else with a similar name, was all. Unfortunately, that
wasn't ironed out until he was already back in the UK.

Perhaps that clarification still hasn't made the rounds in liberal
circles, having to compete for bandwidth as it does with all the
fevered yammering about those E-vill right-wingers.



Geoff

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by Geoff Miller

Post by h***@hotmail.com
I more suspect that his status is just the result of bureaucratic
bungling and wet dreams of imaginary weapons of mass destruction
by people who never cared much for his singing anyway. Remember
that he didn't get along with the gung-ho guys that wanted more
involvement in Vietnam.

Actually, he didn't have any special status. He was mistaken for
somebody else with a similar name, was all. Unfortunately, that
wasn't ironed out until he was already back in the UK.
Perhaps that clarification still hasn't made the rounds in liberal
circles, having to compete for bandwidth as it does with all the
fevered yammering about those E-vill right-wingers.

Transliteration from Arabic script is a real problem.

[Barbara Bomberger]

Post by Tapa
Well, there are plenty of bus sightseeing tours following the same
route (minus Toronto/Detroit, but they add Washington) within a
3 week time-frame. I do however acknowledge that it is a lot of
ground to cover, we have no illusions about that and I do know
that speed limits in the US are particularly low.

As an american living in germany who has driven cross country (a
couple of these things have been pointed out previously but..

1. To do this you would have to travel on the interstates. Many
states have absolutely nothing worth seeing along the interstate or
even nearby. Kansas comes to mind. Many things to see there, Im
sure, but the drive from Kansas City onward to Denver has got to be
the boringest drive on gods green earth, and I have done it more than
once.

2. It is insane to try and see the country ina week. Thats kind of
like me, living in frankfurt, saying I am going to drive all the say
to Lisbon or Athens and see the sights in a week.

3. I suggest picking an area or a city, and seeing that place and its
surroundings intensively. For example, If you stay in Washington DC,
you can also drive to the Pensyvania Countryside, See baltimore and
the harbor, and even go down to coloinial williamsburg. I strongly
suggest the "Daytrip Books" I use them for european travel and they
are wonderufl. They will give perhaps ten one day tours from a major
city.

4, Flying non stop to Frankfurt (or Munich or wherever) from Denver
or further west is truly painful. Admittedly this is from a person
who would rather train to Barcelona from Frankfurt because she hates
to fly but still..

Barb

Post by Tapa

Post by h***@hotmail.com
years have been denied entry into the country for no apparent
reason. Homeland security is going to laugh at the application
of an unmarried couple that want to come into the country and
spend considerably less than $2400 between them on a three
week tour. The background checks would probably cost more
than the money spent on the tour.
For the money, the couple is better off touring the internet for
webcams of the U.S.: or getting a viewmaster and travel videos.
Say, this might be an opportunity for someone to sell their old
mind-numbing vacation slides and videos.

Oh how very nice of you - I'm sure that those comments help a
lot with your country's tourism.
We have not been to US after 9/11, however this is not our first
time there so we should pass security just fine - not to mention
that we study full-time in some of the finest colleges in Germany.
As for your other comments regarding finances - you can check
out my reply in another thread - and not that I have any particular
need to explain myself to someone as kind as you - but like I said,
those 2400$ are just for travel (tickets and rentals) and
accommodation expenses only. We fully expect to spend at least a
total of 4000$ for this trip - but it will probably be around 5k...
I'd think that students willing to spend over 100$ per person per
day would be welcomed in any country, no matter what their
background security checks cost...

[Marcio Watanabe]

Post by h***@hotmail.com
Then there is the problem of just getting into the U.S.. Since the inception
of anti-terrorist measures, we are not a foreign tourist friendly nation. Some
quiet and established folks who have been coming to Florida on vacation for
years have been denied entry into the country for no apparent reason. Homeland
security is going to laugh at the application of an unmarried couple that want
to come into the country and spend considerably less than $2400 between them on
a three week tour. The background checks would probably cost more than the
money spent on the tour.

Wrong. Assuming they are Germans, a not unreasonable assumption since
they live in Germany, I don't think there are any background checks or
even an application to enter the USA.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Marcio Watanabe

Post by h***@hotmail.com
Then there is the problem of just getting into the U.S.. Since the inception
of anti-terrorist measures, we are not a foreign tourist friendly nation. Some
quiet and established folks who have been coming to Florida on vacation for
years have been denied entry into the country for no apparent reason. Homeland
security is going to laugh at the application of an unmarried couple that want
to come into the country and spend considerably less than $2400 between them on
a three week tour. The background checks would probably cost more than the
money spent on the tour.

Wrong. Assuming they are Germans, a not unreasonable assumption
since they live in Germany, I don't think there are any background checks

Oh bullshit with so many of the rabid ragheads living there.

Post by Marcio Watanabe
or even an application to enter the USA.

Yes, thats why they do get turned away on arrival if they dont check out.

Specially if they look like they might be moslems etc.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Miriam P.
I think you are not being realistic. Just gasoline could cost
you $1200!

Where do you get that? At 25 mpg, driving across the country needs
3000/25 = 120 gallons of gas.

Unless you buy $10/gallon gasoline ...

Your general principle is right: $1200 is way low for a trip to the
US from Europe and a drive through it, unless they plan to camp in
the open and catch their own food.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Miriam P.
I think you are not being realistic.
Just gasoline could cost you $1200!

Where do you get that? At 25 mpg, driving across
the country needs 3000/25 = 120 gallons of gas.
Unless you buy $10/gallon gasoline ...
Your general principle is right: $1200 is way low for a
trip to the US from Europe and a drive through it, unless
they plan to camp in the open and catch their own food.

Wouldnt need to catch your own food, its easy
to do that cheaply when camping from the car.

[Joel M. Eichen]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Miriam P.
I think you are not being realistic.
Just gasoline could cost you $1200!

Where do you get that? At 25 mpg, driving across
the country needs 3000/25 = 120 gallons of gas.
Unless you buy $10/gallon gasoline ...
Your general principle is right: $1200 is way low for a
trip to the US from Europe and a drive through it, unless
they plan to camp in the open and catch their own food.

Wouldnt need to catch your own food, its easy
to do that cheaply when camping from the car.

Or you bring a butterfly net and hang it out the bus window .....

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Stan Brown
Your general principle is right: $1200 is way low for a
trip to the US from Europe and a drive through it, unless
they plan to camp in the open and catch their own food.

Wouldnt need to catch your own food, its easy
to do that cheaply when camping from the car.

I'm trying to figure out the extra petrol situation though. Tank is like
nine gallons and I'd like an extra five to allow more security in the
back woods and choice of gas stations elsewhere. Of course can't put it
in the car.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Stan Brown
Your general principle is right: $1200 is way low for a
trip to the US from Europe and a drive through it, unless
they plan to camp in the open and catch their own food.

Wouldnt need to catch your own food, its easy
to do that cheaply when camping from the car.

I'm trying to figure out the extra petrol situation though.

I always used a couple of WW2 jerrycans.
Worked fine, hardly ever had to use them.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Tank is like nine gallons and I'd like an extra five to allow more
security in the back woods and choice of gas stations elsewhere.

Yeah, tho in my case it was more that the roads I preferred to
use, non national highways, usually had few 24/7 gas stations.

No big deal on routes I used quite a bit, I knew where I
had to get gas to be able to drive right thru the night, but
a real problem in areas where you didnt know that detail.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Of course can't put it in the car.

Corse you can. You just need to used decent high quality
steel gas cans designed to survive even warfare.

You some kind of wimp or sumfin boy ?

Some have a sort of rack thing on the outside
of the 4WD and that works pretty well too.

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Stan Brown
Your general principle is right: $1200 is way low for a
trip to the US from Europe and a drive through it, unless
they plan to camp in the open and catch their own food.

Wouldnt need to catch your own food, its easy
to do that cheaply when camping from the car.

I'm trying to figure out the extra petrol situation though.

I always used a couple of WW2 jerrycans.
Worked fine, hardly ever had to use them.

I'm driving a car though, and where to put them, or whatever I use.

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Tank is like nine gallons and I'd like an extra five to allow more
security in the back woods and choice of gas stations elsewhere.

Yeah, tho in my case it was more that the roads I preferred to
use, non national highways, usually had few 24/7 gas stations.

I remember coasting down Lola Pass into Montana years ago. I just turned
the engine off, it was that ugly.

Post by Rod Speed
No big deal on routes I used quite a bit, I knew where I
had to get gas to be able to drive right thru the night, but
a real problem in areas where you didnt know that detail.

And if you head off into the weeds, it could be like in the movie "Wrong
Turn". That should only be in Appalachian country, although since they
now claim to have our Big Foot, maybe we can have their inbred hillbilly
psychotic murderer cannibals.

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Of course can't put it in the car.

Corse you can. You just need to used decent high quality
steel gas cans designed to survive even warfare.
You some kind of wimp or sumfin boy ?

I don' like breathing petrol. That stuff is bad for you.

Post by Rod Speed
Some have a sort of rack thing on the outside
of the 4WD and that works pretty well too.

That's fine with my truck. I'm thinking about making some thing that
attaches to the back bumper and can hold a few things like the gas and
whatever that's light. I do need some place to put my extra tires. Maybe
I'll have to go with a rack.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Stan Brown
Your general principle is right: $1200 is way low for a
trip to the US from Europe and a drive through it, unless
they plan to camp in the open and catch their own food.

Wouldnt need to catch your own food, its easy
to do that cheaply when camping from the car.

I'm trying to figure out the extra petrol situation though.

I always used a couple of WW2 jerrycans.
Worked fine, hardly ever had to use them.

I'm driving a car though,

Me too. Initially a VW beetle in which I put them behind the back seat
back, that space is perfect for those jerrycans facing front to back.
With the camping gear mostly in ex WW2 steel mortar shell cases.

Replaced that with the Golf and they then went in the
hatch back. Rather easier to get the mortar cases out
when setting up for the night. I usually put the camping
stove on one and sat on the other when cooking etc.

Used those even when not camping, more convenient
than a suitcase etc if still travelling by car.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
and where to put them, or whatever I use.

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Tank is like nine gallons and I'd like an extra five to allow more
security in the back woods and choice of gas stations elsewhere.

Yeah, tho in my case it was more that the roads I preferred to
use, non national highways, usually had few 24/7 gas stations.

I remember coasting down Lola Pass into Montana
years ago. I just turned the engine off, it was that ugly.

I never did run out except when I got a couple of alsatian
puppys, one for me and another for someone else, and
I took the front passengers seat out of the beetle and
put newspaper on the flat floor under that and could
keep an eye on them on the long trip home. Got so
distracted watching them that I ran out of gas that time.

Didnt have the jerrycans on that trip because
I knew where I had to fill up. Just forgot to.

One of those puppys turned into the gung ho character
that was pain in the arse in summer with his head out
my window, slobbering all down the back of my neck.

The Golf fixed that problem, he got his own window.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed
No big deal on routes I used quite a bit, I knew where I
had to get gas to be able to drive right thru the night, but
a real problem in areas where you didnt know that detail.

And if you head off into the weeds, it
could be like in the movie "Wrong Turn".

I never got lost, ever. Always used proper survey maps
in areas like that. The only problem is that there was no
gas at all in those areas I spent a lot time in, none.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
That should only be in Appalachian country, although
since they now claim to have our Big Foot, maybe we
can have their inbred hillbilly psychotic murderer cannibals.

Just another pathetic little neurotic fear |-)

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Of course can't put it in the car.

Corse you can. You just need to used decent high quality
steel gas cans designed to survive even warfare.
You some kind of wimp or sumfin boy ?

I don' like breathing petrol.

You dont breath any with properly designed jerrycans.

In fact they are so well sealed that you get quite
a noticeable pressure release when the temp you
open them at is quite different to the filling temp.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
That stuff is bad for you.

Sure.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed
Some have a sort of rack thing on the outside
of the 4WD and that works pretty well too.

That's fine with my truck. I'm thinking about making
some thing that attaches to the back bumper and can
hold a few things like the gas and whatever that's light.

Yeah, I have seen that done with both a beetle and a golf.

The bigger 4WDs often have a full rack system right
over the roof area that you can put a lot of stuff on.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I do need some place to put my extra tires.

I've never bothered with more than one.

Only ever had two fail and that was when I was building the
house and just got a mate who had a beetle to lend me a spare.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Maybe I'll have to go with a rack.

Yeah, they arent hard to make if you can weld.

Corse thats from someone who basically welded up the house, too.

[Joel M. Eichen]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Stan Brown
Your general principle is right: $1200 is way low for a
trip to the US from Europe and a drive through it, unless
they plan to camp in the open and catch their own food.

Wouldnt need to catch your own food, its easy
to do that cheaply when camping from the car.

I'm trying to figure out the extra petrol situation though.

I always used a couple of WW2 jerrycans.

Isn't that where the Berliners go to the bathroom?

Post by Rod Speed
Worked fine, hardly ever had to use them.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Tank is like nine gallons and I'd like an extra five to allow more
security in the back woods and choice of gas stations elsewhere.

Yeah, tho in my case it was more that the roads I preferred to
use, non national highways, usually had few 24/7 gas stations.
No big deal on routes I used quite a bit, I knew where I
had to get gas to be able to drive right thru the night, but
a real problem in areas where you didnt know that detail.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Of course can't put it in the car.

Corse you can. You just need to used decent high quality
steel gas cans designed to survive even warfare.
You some kind of wimp or sumfin boy ?
Some have a sort of rack thing on the outside
of the 4WD and that works pretty well too.

[David W.]

Post by Tapa
I am planning a trip with my girlfriend this winter to USA and was
wondering if anyone could help with the specifics. We have 3 weeks
available and are traveling on extreme budget - would like this trip to
cost less around 1200$ USD per person (for travel and board
expenses - including a flight from Europe).

I finished a 2-week, 4500 mile vacation across the central and western US
with my kids in July. We averaged about $270/day for everything, including
touristy stuff and souvenirs (that's for 1 adult and 4 kids). Hotels
averaged $100/night (room with 2 double/queen beds, most had a pool.) Food
averaged about $50/day (we carried a cooler with sandwich stuff for lunch,
typically had fast food for dinner - kids choice :-)

The total cost of the 2-week trip was about $3500, or $700 per person. The
cost per person will probably go up with only 2 people, since things like
gas and hotel don't decrease much with 1/2 the people.

Also, you'll have to add in the cost of a rental car and airfare. A quick
look at Avis looks like an intermediate size car for three weeks, including
insurance coverage, would cost about $43/day, or about $860 for 20 days.

It looks like round-trip airfare from Europe (I picked Frankfurt) is
running $550 - $600 per person.

These are the estimates I worked up:
airfare: $1100 (round trip for 2)
car: $860 ($43/day for 20 days)
gas: $360 (5000 miles, 28 MPG, $2/gal)
hotel: $1600 ($80/night for 20 nights)
food: $800 ($20/day each for 20 days)
----------------
$4720 total, 2 people for 20 days
or
$2360 per person ($118 per day per person)

This doesn't include money for any entertainment or tourist attractions.

So, you'll either need to a) increase your budget, b) shorten your trip.
One option would be to look into youth hostels rather than hotels. Some of
my European friends have done that and saved a lot of money. I think they
found a web site that had information.

[Jessica V.]

Post by David W.

Post by Tapa
I am planning a trip with my girlfriend this winter to USA and was
wondering if anyone could help with the specifics. We have 3 weeks
available and are traveling on extreme budget - would like this trip to
cost less around 1200$ USD per person (for travel and board
expenses - including a flight from Europe).

I finished a 2-week, 4500 mile vacation across the central and western US
with my kids in July. We averaged about $270/day for everything, including
touristy stuff and souvenirs (that's for 1 adult and 4 kids). Hotels
averaged $100/night (room with 2 double/queen beds, most had a pool.) Food
averaged about $50/day (we carried a cooler with sandwich stuff for lunch,
typically had fast food for dinner - kids choice :-)
The total cost of the 2-week trip was about $3500, or $700 per person. The
cost per person will probably go up with only 2 people, since things like
gas and hotel don't decrease much with 1/2 the people.
Also, you'll have to add in the cost of a rental car and airfare. A quick
look at Avis looks like an intermediate size car for three weeks, including
insurance coverage, would cost about $43/day, or about $860 for 20 days.
It looks like round-trip airfare from Europe (I picked Frankfurt) is
running $550 - $600 per person.
airfare: $1100 (round trip for 2)
car: $860 ($43/day for 20 days)
gas: $360 (5000 miles, 28 MPG, $2/gal)
hotel: $1600 ($80/night for 20 nights)
food: $800 ($20/day each for 20 days)
----------------
$4720 total, 2 people for 20 days
or
$2360 per person ($118 per day per person)
This doesn't include money for any entertainment or tourist attractions.
So, you'll either need to a) increase your budget, b) shorten your trip.
One option would be to look into youth hostels rather than hotels. Some of
my European friends have done that and saved a lot of money. I think they
found a web site that had information.

I think the OP might want to reconsider the time of year for a cross
country with side trek into Canada drive. Many national parks and other
tourist spots are closed durring the winter months. States in the west
shutdown highways at times due to snow, seeking alternate routes has for
some been fatal.

Lodging costs could be cut down to about $400 by traveling in warmer
months when staying at campgrounds is an option.

Food...peanut butter sandwiches for breakfast and lunch cost about $0.60
a day per person. Dinner bottled water or soda purchased in 24 pack
$0.25 per person, fast food burger from $1.00 menu...$1.85 a day per
person. Total $74 for food.

Not a way that I'd ever want to travel and it'd still leave you $394
over budget. And still lots of costs are not being taken into
considereation.

[Beachcomber]

Post by Tapa
I am planning a trip with my girlfriend this winter to USA and was
wondering if anyone could help with the specifics. We have 3 weeks
available and are traveling on extreme budget - would like this trip to
cost less around 1200$ USD per person (for travel and board
expenses - including a flight from Europe).

If you do take the trip, you might want to follow the old Route 66
from Chicago to Los Angeles. It follows the general idea of where you
wanted to go and you can easily branch off to Las Vegas and detour to
the Grand Canyon.

Though much of the old highway is gone and has been replaced by
Interstate, there are still many interesting stretches of the old
Highway in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Missoui, Oklahoma, and
Illinois. There are many books filled with interesting places to see
on old 66 and some contain maps of the old highway alignments of which
now many are uncrowded and scenic two lane roads.

Check out the book called "The Mother Road" Route 66. Can't recall
the author.

Beachcomber

[Joel M. Eichen]

Post by Beachcomber

Post by Tapa
I am planning a trip with my girlfriend this winter to USA and was
wondering if anyone could help with the specifics. We have 3 weeks
available and are traveling on extreme budget - would like this trip to
cost less around 1200$ USD per person (for travel and board
expenses - including a flight from Europe).

If you do take the trip, you might want to follow the old Route 66
from Chicago to Los Angeles.

There's an ad in the paper, a guy named Kerouac ,,, Jack or John ,,,
nah its Jack ... wants some people to go along ......

WAIT. Its an old paper!

Joel

Post by Beachcomber
It follows the general idea of where you
wanted to go and you can easily branch off to Las Vegas and detour to
the Grand Canyon.
Though much of the old highway is gone and has been replaced by
Interstate, there are still many interesting stretches of the old
Highway in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Missoui, Oklahoma, and
Illinois. There are many books filled with interesting places to see
on old 66 and some contain maps of the old highway alignments of which
now many are uncrowded and scenic two lane roads.
Check out the book called "The Mother Road" Route 66. Can't recall
the author.
Beachcomber

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by Joel M. Eichen

Post by Beachcomber

Post by Tapa
I am planning a trip with my girlfriend this winter to USA and was
wondering if anyone could help with the specifics. We have 3 weeks
available and are traveling on extreme budget - would like this trip to
cost less around 1200$ USD per person (for travel and board
expenses - including a flight from Europe).

If you do take the trip, you might want to follow the old Route 66
from Chicago to Los Angeles.

There's an ad in the paper, a guy named Kerouac ,,, Jack or John ,,,
nah its Jack ... wants some people to go along ......
WAIT. Its an old paper!

"On the Road" made the bugger. Do you think reading that would help our
itinerant travellers from euroland more than taking in, say, Ginsberg's
"Howl"?

[Joel M. Eichen]

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:11:14 -0700, "Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Joel M. Eichen

Post by Beachcomber

Post by Tapa
I am planning a trip with my girlfriend this winter to USA and was
wondering if anyone could help with the specifics. We have 3 weeks
available and are traveling on extreme budget - would like this trip to
cost less around 1200$ USD per person (for travel and board
expenses - including a flight from Europe).

If you do take the trip, you might want to follow the old Route 66
from Chicago to Los Angeles.

There's an ad in the paper, a guy named Kerouac ,,, Jack or John ,,,
nah its Jack ... wants some people to go along ......
WAIT. Its an old paper!

"On the Road" made the bugger. Do you think reading that would help our
itinerant travellers from euroland more than taking in, say, Ginsberg's
"Howl"?

Got to put it in context. The "BEAT GENERATION" just does not mean
that much anymore ....

BEATniks......

BEATles .....

black turtlenecks, gee-tars, etc.

[Beachcomber]

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
"On the Road" made the bugger. Do you think reading that would help our
itinerant travellers from euroland more than taking in, say, Ginsberg's
"Howl"?

I would suggest another classic on-the-road in America book:

"Blue Highways: A Journey into America" by William Least Heat-Moon.

Beachcomber

[Rod Speed]

I am planning a trip with my girlfriend this winter to USA and was wondering if anyone could help with the specifics. We have 3
weeks available and are traveling on extreme budget - would like this trip to cost less around 1200$ USD per person (for travel
and board expenses - including a flight from Europe).

I finished a 2-week, 4500 mile vacation across the central and western US with my kids in July. We averaged about $270/day for
everything, including touristy stuff and souvenirs (that's for 1 adult and 4 kids). Hotels averaged $100/night (room with 2
double/queen beds, most had a pool.) Food averaged about $50/day (we carried a cooler with sandwich stuff for lunch, typically
had fast food for dinner - kids choice :-)
The total cost of the 2-week trip was about $3500, or $700 per person. The cost per person will probably go up with only 2
people, since things like gas and hotel don't decrease much with 1/2 the people.
Also, you'll have to add in the cost of a rental car and airfare. A quick look at Avis looks like an intermediate size car for
three weeks, including insurance coverage, would cost about $43/day, or about $860 for 20 days.
It looks like round-trip airfare from Europe (I picked Frankfurt) is running $550 - $600 per person.
airfare: $1100 (round trip for 2)
car: $860 ($43/day for 20 days)
gas: $360 (5000 miles, 28 MPG, $2/gal)
hotel: $1600 ($80/night for 20 nights)
food: $800 ($20/day each for 20 days)
----------------
$4720 total, 2 people for 20 days
or
$2360 per person ($118 per day per person)
This doesn't include money for any entertainment or tourist attractions.
So, you'll either need to a) increase your budget, b) shorten your trip. One option would be to look into youth hostels rather
than hotels. Some of my European friends have done that and saved a lot of money. I think they found a web site that had
information.

I think the OP might want to reconsider the time of year for a cross country with side trek into Canada drive. Many national
parks and other tourist spots are closed durring the winter months. States in the west shutdown highways at times due to snow,
seeking alternate routes has for some been fatal.
Lodging costs could be cut down to about $400 by traveling in warmer months when staying at campgrounds is an option.

Or sleeping in the car.

Food...peanut butter sandwiches for breakfast and lunch cost about $0.60 a day per person.

Doesnt need to cost that much either.

Dinner bottled water or soda purchased in 24 pack $0.25 per person, fast food burger from $1.00 menu...$1.85 a day per person.
Total $74 for food.
Not a way that I'd ever want to travel

I've done it for that length of time and distance. Works fine.

and it'd still leave you $394 over budget.

Not if you sleep in the car.

I'd scrap the rental myself, buy a junker at the start and sell it at the end.

Thats what plenty of the lowest cost tourists do.

And still lots of costs are not being taken into considereation.

Nope.

[Joel M. Eichen]

Post by Rod Speed
Or sleeping in the car.

WHOT CAR??? They are driving here from England?

Joel

Post by Rod Speed

Food...peanut butter sandwiches for breakfast and lunch cost about $0.60 a day per person.

Doesnt need to cost that much either.

[Joel M. Eichen]

Post by Rod Speed
Or sleeping in the car.

Food...peanut butter sandwiches for breakfast and lunch cost about $0.60 a day per person.

Bring a second set of clothes with .... the THIN clothes .....!

Joel

Post by Rod Speed
Doesnt need to cost that much either.

[The Real Bev]

Post by Rod Speed

Lodging costs could be cut down to about $400 by traveling in warmer months when staying at campgrounds is an option.

Or sleeping in the car.

Food...peanut butter sandwiches for breakfast and lunch cost about $0.60 a day per person.

Doesnt need to cost that much either.

Dinner bottled water or soda purchased in 24 pack $0.25 per person, fast food burger from $1.00 menu...$1.85 a day per person.
Total $74 for food.
Not a way that I'd ever want to travel

I've done it for that length of time and distance. Works fine.

For once you're making sense. I partially forgive you.

Post by Rod Speed

and it'd still leave you $394 over budget.

Not if you sleep in the car.
I'd scrap the rental myself, buy a junker at the start and sell it at the end.

My son and his friends did that (they bought a Holden) when they spent
several months in Oz a few decades ago. The friends waited for my son
to arrive because he was the only one who knew anything about cars and
would have to fix anything that went wrong. Their worst problem was
driving to Ayers Rock in the only wet summer anybody had seen for a long
time. They eventually threw away their tent and sleeping bags because
the mildew stench was intolerable. The friends sold the car after son
left.

I doubt if it would be that easy here and now, though. Junkers ain't
what they used to be and would be impractical with the limited time
these people have.

Post by Rod Speed
Thats what plenty of the lowest cost tourists do.

And still lots of costs are not being taken into considereation.

Nope.

Take twice the money and half the stuff. Or not.

[Rod Speed]

Post by The Real Bev

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Jessica V.
Lodging costs could be cut down to about $400 by traveling
in warmer months when staying at campgrounds is an option.

Or sleeping in the car.

Post by Jessica V.
Food...peanut butter sandwiches for breakfast
and lunch cost about $0.60 a day per person.

Doesnt need to cost that much either.

Post by Jessica V.
Dinner bottled water or soda purchased in 24 pack
$0.25 per person, fast food burger from $1.00 menu...
$1.85 a day per person. Total $74 for food.
Not a way that I'd ever want to travel

I've done it for that length of time and distance. Works fine.

For once you're making sense.

Even you should be able to manage a
better troll than that pathetic effort, granny.

Post by The Real Bev
I partially forgive you.

Thats like being forgiven by Ma Shiela.

No thanks.

Post by The Real Bev

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Jessica V.
and it'd still leave you $394 over budget.

Not if you sleep in the car.
I'd scrap the rental myself, buy a junker at the start and sell it at the end.

My son and his friends did that (they bought a Holden)
when they spent several months in Oz a few decades ago.

Yeah, lot of the cheap end tourists do.

Not only do you get a junker, its usually got some pretty useful
other stuff with it too, something to sleep on and cook on etc.

Post by The Real Bev
The friends waited for my son to arrive because
he was the only one who knew anything about cars
and would have to fix anything that went wrong.

If you get something common, almost any mechanic can fix it.

If its a major problem, just get another junker.

Post by The Real Bev
Their worst problem was driving to Ayers Rock in the
only wet summer anybody had seen for a long time.
They eventually threw away their tent and sleeping
bags because the mildew stench was intolerable.

Yeah, can be a problem in the wetter areas.

You can end up with pretty obscene ulcers on your legs etc too.

Plenty of the natives go 'troppo' in 'the wet' too.

Post by The Real Bev
The friends sold the car after son left.
I doubt if it would be that easy here and now, though.

Corse it is. Bet heaps do it.

Post by The Real Bev
Junkers ain't what they used to be and would be
impractical with the limited time these people have.

Nope.

Post by The Real Bev

Post by Rod Speed
Thats what plenty of the lowest cost tourists do.

Post by Jessica V.
And still lots of costs are not being taken into considereation.

Nope.

Take twice the money and half the stuff. Or not.

Or take twice the time. Thats the main thing thats a bit short
from my point of view for the distance they want to cover.

Might not be possible to change that tho.

Heaps take much longs, like a full year off etc too.

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by Rod Speed

Lodging costs could be cut down to about $400 by traveling in warmer months when staying at campgrounds is an option.

Or sleeping in the car.

See, right there she's saved a wad o' cash. Supposedly you can sleep in
the car at Walmart. A comprehensive list would be nice. Rest areas are
available as long as you don't stay more than eight hours. No big deal.

Post by Rod Speed

Food...peanut butter sandwiches for breakfast and lunch cost about $0.60 a day per person.

Doesnt need to cost that much either.

It doesn't have to be kiddie food (or food for our president) either. A
tin can stove can cook you up some quick pan cakes and get your lunch of
tortillas all made up using only wood for fuel.

Post by Rod Speed

Dinner bottled water or soda purchased in 24 pack $0.25 per person, fast food burger from $1.00 menu...$1.85 a day per person.
Total $74 for food.
Not a way that I'd ever want to travel

I wouldn't buy water. I have a water filter I'd use. Eating that kind of
food all the time isn't healthy, that's for sure.

Post by Rod Speed
I've done it for that length of time and distance. Works fine.

and it'd still leave you $394 over budget.

Not if you sleep in the car.
I'd scrap the rental myself, buy a junker at the start and sell it at the end.

This is pretty easy to do in America. I wonder if anyone has any plans
for doing this in Euroland or Australia. I've got a car you can have for
$350 that will get you a few thousand miles and you can just push it off
a cliff where your done.

Post by Rod Speed
Thats what plenty of the lowest cost tourists do.

But, of course, in the frugal group, we have to tell people to rent new
cars and pay for hotels every night.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Jessica V.
Lodging costs could be cut down to about $400 by traveling
in warmer months when staying at campgrounds is an option.

Or sleeping in the car.

See, right there she's saved a wad o' cash. Supposedly you can sleep in
the car at Walmart. A comprehensive list would be nice. Rest areas are
available as long as you don't stay more than eight hours. No big deal.

I prefer to stop on the side of the road myself.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Jessica V.
Food...peanut butter sandwiches for breakfast
and lunch cost about $0.60 a day per person.

Doesnt need to cost that much either.

It doesn't have to be kiddie food (or food for our president) either.

Yeah, I mostly just had toast and marmalade for breakfast and presliced
cheese or salami on bread for lunch, before I gave up lunch entirely.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
A tin can stove can cook you up some quick pan cakes and
get your lunch of tortillas all made up using only wood for fuel.

I prefer a proper camping gas stove myself, propane etc.

I dont use fast food for dinner much myself, but thats
because I mostly do it well away from the fast food places.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Jessica V.
Dinner bottled water or soda purchased in 24 pack $0.25 per person, fast
food burger from $1.00 menu...$1.85 a day per person. Total $74 for food.
Not a way that I'd ever want to travel

I wouldn't buy water.

Yeah, I never did. Just filled up a plastic jerrycan
with water at the gas station when getting gas.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I have a water filter I'd use.

I dont bother because the gas stations have town water on tap.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Eating that kind of food all the time isn't healthy, that's for sure.

Thats just plain wrong. It wont do you any harm.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed
I've done it for that length of time and distance. Works fine.

Post by Jessica V.
and it'd still leave you $394 over budget.

Not if you sleep in the car.
I'd scrap the rental myself, buy a junker at the start and sell it at the end.

This is pretty easy to do in America.

Right thruout the first world in fact. And the second world too.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I wonder if anyone has any plans for doing this in Euroland or Australia.

Yeah, heaps do it in Australia. In fact far more do it that way than rent.

Significant bonus because the junker bought from someone who
has just done that themselves usually comes with the mattress
etc and some cooking gear that they used themselves.

Every state capital has a specific usually carpark where
everyone is buying or selling those junkers used that way.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I've got a car you can have for $350 that will get you a few
thousand miles and you can just push it off a cliff where your done.

Or just flog it to the next low cost tourist at the other end.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed
Thats what plenty of the lowest cost tourists do.

But, of course, in the frugal group, we have to tell
people to rent new cars and pay for hotels every night.

OK, I'll give myself a small whipping as punishment.

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Jessica V.
Lodging costs could be cut down to about $400 by traveling
in warmer months when staying at campgrounds is an option.

Or sleeping in the car.

See, right there she's saved a wad o' cash. Supposedly you can sleep in
the car at Walmart. A comprehensive list would be nice. Rest areas are
available as long as you don't stay more than eight hours. No big deal.

I prefer to stop on the side of the road myself.

Use what you got.

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Jessica V.
Food...peanut butter sandwiches for breakfast
and lunch cost about $0.60 a day per person.

Doesnt need to cost that much either.

It doesn't have to be kiddie food (or food for our president) either.

Yeah, I mostly just had toast and marmalade for breakfast and presliced
cheese or salami on bread for lunch, before I gave up lunch entirely.

Cream cheese and bagels with some sort of sausage that keeps has been
popular backpacking lunch for me for a long time. I'm trying to stay
light and get more complicated though. I don't see why I can't cook like
normal when out in the wilderness.

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
A tin can stove can cook you up some quick pan cakes and
get your lunch of tortillas all made up using only wood for fuel.

I prefer a proper camping gas stove myself, propane etc.

Remember a few years back when some gas got sold as kerosene and there
were some pretty bad accidents? With propane or butane you have to carry
the empty and butane isn't good in the cold.

Post by Rod Speed
I dont use fast food for dinner much myself, but thats
because I mostly do it well away from the fast food places.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Jessica V.
Dinner bottled water or soda purchased in 24 pack $0.25 per person, fast
food burger from $1.00 menu...$1.85 a day per person. Total $74 for food.
Not a way that I'd ever want to travel

I wouldn't buy water.

Yeah, I never did. Just filled up a plastic jerrycan
with water at the gas station when getting gas.

Good enough.

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I have a water filter I'd use.

I dont bother because the gas stations have town water on tap.

You might want to run it through the filter anyway.

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Eating that kind of food all the time isn't healthy, that's for sure.

Thats just plain wrong. It wont do you any harm.

Oh yea, watch that "Supersize Me" documentary. The guy's liver is like a
goose ready for pate de foie gras.

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed
I've done it for that length of time and distance. Works fine.

Post by Jessica V.
and it'd still leave you $394 over budget.

Not if you sleep in the car.
I'd scrap the rental myself, buy a junker at the start and sell it at the end.

This is pretty easy to do in America.

Right thruout the first world in fact. And the second world too.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I wonder if anyone has any plans for doing this in Euroland or Australia.

Yeah, heaps do it in Australia. In fact far more do it that way than rent.
Significant bonus because the junker bought from someone who
has just done that themselves usually comes with the mattress
etc and some cooking gear that they used themselves.
Every state capital has a specific usually carpark where
everyone is buying or selling those junkers used that way.

That's the kind of information that might help people.

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I've got a car you can have for $350 that will get you a few
thousand miles and you can just push it off a cliff where your done.

Or just flog it to the next low cost tourist at the other end.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed
Thats what plenty of the lowest cost tourists do.

But, of course, in the frugal group, we have to tell
people to rent new cars and pay for hotels every night.

OK, I'll give myself a small whipping as punishment.

Enjoy it like a Filipino.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Jessica V.
Lodging costs could be cut down to about $400 by traveling
in warmer months when staying at campgrounds is an option.

Or sleeping in the car.

See, right there she's saved a wad o' cash. Supposedly you can sleep in
the car at Walmart. A comprehensive list would be nice. Rest areas are
available as long as you don't stay more than eight hours. No big deal.

I prefer to stop on the side of the road myself.

Use what you got.

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Jessica V.
Food...peanut butter sandwiches for breakfast
and lunch cost about $0.60 a day per person.

Doesnt need to cost that much either.

It doesn't have to be kiddie food (or food for our president) either.

Yeah, I mostly just had toast and marmalade for breakfast and presliced
cheese or salami on bread for lunch, before I gave up lunch entirely.

Cream cheese and bagels with some sort of sausage that keeps
has been popular backpacking lunch for me for a long time.

Yeah, most of my camping was done before fridges were viable,
and ice doesnt last all that long in the hot weather I prefer to camp in.

Never been keen on warm beer tho.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I'm trying to stay light and get more complicated though. I don't
see why I can't cook like normal when out in the wilderness.

My normal is mostly out of the freezer so its not as practical for me.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
A tin can stove can cook you up some quick pan cakes and
get your lunch of tortillas all made up using only wood for fuel.

I prefer a proper camping gas stove myself, propane etc.

Remember a few years back when some gas got sold
as kerosene and there were some pretty bad accidents?

Sorry, careless use of words there, I didnt mean gas in
the sense of petrol, gas as in propane, in a steel cylinder.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
With propane or butane you have to carry the empty

Nope, I got an oversized propane cylinder that
turned out to be way oversized, even tho its only
about 18"x6" and that lasts for years, literally.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
and butane isn't good in the cold.

Yeah, always avoided that.

My dad was always into cooking steak, chops and sausages
in a sort of folding wire frame thing that opened like a book,
with handles, which goes on a wood fire, but it gets awfully
greasy and grungy, hard to carry, and we often have full
fire bans in the hot weather I prefer to camp in. Propane
stoves are fine, wood fires are banned.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed
I dont use fast food for dinner much myself, but thats
because I mostly do it well away from the fast food places.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Jessica V.
Dinner bottled water or soda purchased in 24 pack $0.25 per person, fast
food burger from $1.00 menu...$1.85 a day per person. Total $74 for food.
Not a way that I'd ever want to travel

I wouldn't buy water.

Yeah, I never did. Just filled up a plastic jerrycan
with water at the gas station when getting gas.

Good enough.

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I have a water filter I'd use.

I dont bother because the gas stations have town water on tap.

You might want to run it through the filter anyway.

No need, our town supplys are always drinkable without anything.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Eating that kind of food all the time isn't healthy, that's for sure.

Thats just plain wrong. It wont do you any harm.

Oh yea, watch that "Supersize Me" documentary.

That fool was stupid enough to pig out on it.

I only ever have a single burger per meal now, tho when
I was younger I did have two instead. Normal sized ones too.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
The guy's liver is like a goose ready for pate de foie gras.

Nope. Quite a few do eat nothing but fast food and do fine on it.

And plenty more are stupid enough to pig out
on it just like they do on non fast food too.

Not a triffic idea to eat JUST what you lot call frys, but few do that.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed
I've done it for that length of time and distance. Works fine.

Post by Jessica V.
and it'd still leave you $394 over budget.

Not if you sleep in the car.
I'd scrap the rental myself, buy a junker at the start and sell it at the end.

This is pretty easy to do in America.

Right thruout the first world in fact. And the second world too.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I wonder if anyone has any plans for doing this in Euroland or Australia.

Yeah, heaps do it in Australia. In fact far more do it that way than rent.
Significant bonus because the junker bought from someone who
has just done that themselves usually comes with the mattress
etc and some cooking gear that they used themselves.
Every state capital has a specific usually carpark where
everyone is buying or selling those junkers used that way.

That's the kind of information that might help people.

Yeah. Not sure where they find out about it, but all
those low cost tourists appear to know about it. By
word of mouth in the cheapest hostels etc presumably.

Where bedbugs are currently quite a problem apparently.

Brought in by you damned tourists during the olympics apparently |-)

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I've got a car you can have for $350 that will get you a few
thousand miles and you can just push it off a cliff where your done.

Or just flog it to the next low cost tourist at the other end.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed
Thats what plenty of the lowest cost tourists do.

But, of course, in the frugal group, we have to tell
people to rent new cars and pay for hotels every night.

OK, I'll give myself a small whipping as punishment.

Enjoy it like a Filipino.

Or those stupid rag heads that end up with blood all over them.

[PaPaPeng]

Post by Rod Speed
My dad was always into cooking steak, chops and sausages
in a sort of folding wire frame thing that opened like a book,
with handles, which goes on a wood fire, but it gets awfully
greasy and grungy, hard to carry, and we often have full
fire bans in the hot weather I prefer to camp in. Propane
stoves are fine, wood fires are banned.

For my first road trip I brought along a Hibachi charcoal grill to do
steaks and pork chops, chicken, weiners, etc. After three days of
that (spread out over a week) I tossed the whole sheebang out. First
there is only so much BBQ meat one can eat. Too rich, too bland and
too greasy. Secondly if I totalled up the costs its even more than if
I ate at one of those "All You Can Eat" places and those places have
soup and salad too. Then the camp-cooking equipment is too messy and
involves set up time and clean up-pack up time better spent doing
something else. And last of all in a restuarant, even a fast food
one, there is the restroom with that heavenly convenience called a
clean private toilet stall and a washbasin. There are restaurants
wherever there are roads so one never has to worry about going hungry
for more than an hour's drive anywhere.

One more tip. Avoid having food and drink in the car. A small snack
like beef jerky and one pop bottle maybe. But don't make the car rat
heaven with spilled potato chips, candy bits and junk food.

[Joel M. Eichen]

Post by PaPaPeng

Post by Rod Speed
My dad was always into cooking steak, chops and sausages
in a sort of folding wire frame thing that opened like a book,
with handles, which goes on a wood fire, but it gets awfully
greasy and grungy, hard to carry, and we often have full
fire bans in the hot weather I prefer to camp in. Propane
stoves are fine, wood fires are banned.

For my first road trip I brought along a Hibachi charcoal grill to do
steaks and pork chops, chicken, weiners, etc. After three days of
that (spread out over a week) I tossed the whole sheebang out.

I was wondering how that forest fires started .....

Post by PaPaPeng
First
there is only so much BBQ meat one can eat. Too rich, too bland and
too greasy. Secondly if I totalled up the costs its even more than if
I ate at one of those "All You Can Eat" places and those places have
soup and salad too.

YUP, and the salad isn't made on the hibachi ....

Post by PaPaPeng
Then the camp-cooking equipment is too messy and
involves set up time and clean up-pack up time better spent doing
something else. And last of all in a restuarant, even a fast food
one, there is the restroom with that heavenly convenience called a
clean private toilet stall and a washbasin. There are restaurants
wherever there are roads so one never has to worry about going hungry
for more than an hour's drive anywhere.
One more tip. Avoid having food and drink in the car. A small snack
like beef jerky and one pop bottle maybe. But don't make the car rat
heaven with spilled potato chips, candy bits and junk food.

[PaPaPeng]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:35:09 -0400, Joel M. Eichen

Post by Joel M. Eichen
I was wondering how that forest fires started .....

Reminds me of a segment on wildfires in a PBS show. The Montana
highway cops were chasing down a dangerous arsonist that was setting
fires to the dry grass for miles along the side of the highway. When
they finally caught up with the culprit he was driving this truck
with a towed camper, one of those two wheelers with tiny wheels. One
had a flat. The driver wasn't aware of that and continued on his
merry way. Of course the tire was soon shredded and ran along its
metal rims shedding sparks. Yeah, I've driven through Montana and the
highways are normally empty and I wouldn't see another car for half an
hour or more. That's something like 30 to 40 miles covered at highway
speeds. Some fire trail.


I am always pretty careful there to use only designated picnic-firepit
areas. Me? None of this virgin wilderness campsites for me. Had my
fill of roughing it out while in the army. Don't hunt, don't fish and
I love all god's creatures. They are there for a purpose and so long
as they don't sting me or try to kill me I am all for watching them do
their thing undisturbed.

In Canada, if you step into the woods just 100 yeards outside the
picnic or camp area you are already in the wilderness. You can go for
a two day trek from there and see exactly the same trees and terrain.
So I don't camp. Sleeping in the car is good enough and then move on
to another place.

[Rod Speed]

I am always pretty careful there to use only designated picnic-firepit areas.

I prefer to avoid those. I dont like camping where anyone else is at all.

Me? None of this virgin wilderness campsites for me.
Had my fill of roughing it out while in the army.

Yeah, its not for everyone.

Don't hunt, don't fish

Yeah, I dont bother with either since I was a kid.

and I love all god's creatures. They are there for a purpose

Nope, they just evolved like that. And some duds like the dodo died out.

and so long as they don't sting me or try to kill me
I am all for watching them do their thing undisturbed.

We've just had someone dragged out of their tent by a crocodile.

His mother or MIL appears to have taken the croc on after that.

Someone shot it and everyone survived.

Camped on the beach basically.

We had one kid killed by a dingo a couple of years ago.

And another lunched on someone's baby, literally.

Very rare tho.

In Canada, if you step into the woods just 100 yeards outside
the picnic or camp area you are already in the wilderness.

Yeah, same in much of Australia too.

You can go for a two day trek from there
and see exactly the same trees and terrain.

Plenty like that.

So I don't camp. Sleeping in the car is good
enough and then move on to another place.

Yeah, tho I prefer to not use established camp sites.

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by Rod Speed

I am always pretty careful there to use only designated picnic-firepit areas.

I prefer to avoid those. I dont like camping where anyone else is at all.

I never could figure out people who think that 'camping' is going to a
campground.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

I am always pretty careful there to use only designated picnic-firepit areas.

I prefer to avoid those. I dont like camping where anyone else is at all.

I never could figure out people who think
that 'camping' is going to a campground.

True. It is the most common approach tho.

I dont even like to see anyone else on a 4 mile beach.

[CC Bailey]

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

I am always pretty careful there to use only designated picnic-firepit areas.

I prefer to avoid those. I dont like camping where anyone else is at all.

I never could figure out people who think that 'camping' is going to a
campground.

I agree that campground's aren't really camping. We take our camping
gear on vacation whenever we head west so that we can stay out longer
and see more sites. We consider it saving money on lodging since we
already own all the gear, and only have to pay $5-10 a night for the
tent site. (Love that Golden Access Pass for the national parks!) On
those trips, I cook some, but we also eat out whenever we feel like it.

[Hotel Discounts]

Post by CC Bailey

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

I am always pretty careful there to use only designated picnic-firepit areas.

I prefer to avoid those. I dont like camping where anyone else is at all.

I never could figure out people who think that 'camping' is going to a
campground.

I agree that campground's aren't really camping. We take our camping
gear on vacation whenever we head west so that we can stay out longer
and see more sites. We consider it saving money on lodging since we
already own all the gear, and only have to pay $5-10 a night for the
tent site. (Love that Golden Access Pass for the national parks!) On
those trips, I cook some, but we also eat out whenever we feel like it.

www.b8.ca

[Joel M. Eichen]

Post by Rod Speed

I am always pretty careful there to use only designated picnic-firepit areas.

I prefer to avoid those. I dont like camping where anyone else is at all.

Would that be like taking a bath without changing the water first?

Post by Rod Speed

Me? None of this virgin wilderness campsites for me.
Had my fill of roughing it out while in the army.

Yeah, its not for everyone.

Don't hunt, don't fish

Yeah, I dont bother with either since I was a kid.

and I love all god's creatures. They are there for a purpose

Nope, they just evolved like that. And some duds like the dodo died out.

and so long as they don't sting me or try to kill me
I am all for watching them do their thing undisturbed.

We've just had someone dragged out of their tent by a crocodile.
His mother or MIL appears to have taken the croc on after that.
Someone shot it and everyone survived.
Camped on the beach basically.
We had one kid killed by a dingo a couple of years ago.
And another lunched on someone's baby, literally.
Very rare tho.

In Canada, if you step into the woods just 100 yeards outside
the picnic or camp area you are already in the wilderness.

Yeah, same in much of Australia too.

You can go for a two day trek from there
and see exactly the same trees and terrain.

Plenty like that.

So I don't camp. Sleeping in the car is good
enough and then move on to another place.

Yeah, tho I prefer to not use established camp sites.

[PaPaPeng]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by PaPaPeng
Me? None of this virgin wilderness campsites for me.
Had my fill of roughing it out while in the army.

Yeah, its not for everyone.

I am into sightseeing and there is a lot of travel time and distance
involved to visit those designated National Park places. The chances
of my coming back are not that great so I prefer to do my walking and
doing rather than spend time prepping, eating or setting up camp.
I know enough about nature and geology to be able to enjoy what I see
and put them into context.

I (including my gron son on accasion) love the wilderness and am quite
capable of enjoying the scenery by myself without having anyone for
miles around. Its just too much trouble to set up camp. I also love
people. When I hit a town or a business I always chat them up and
learn a lot about the locals that way. I get a lot of milage out of
a holiday.

My son and I are one of those weirdos who can comfortably go without a
full meal for two days, a few carrry along snacks and bottled water
will do, so we do cover a lot of ground if need be. We stick to day
trips and get back to civilization for the night. We travel very
light and can move at an instant's notice.

Post by Rod Speed
We've just had someone dragged out of their tent by a crocodile.

This is the real Dawinism at work. Why would anyone put themselves in
that kind of danger? Its usually ignorance of the terrain and
conditions. They shouldn't do the wilderness thing unless they have
someone more knowledgeable or learn how to recognize bad ideas before
they become one.

Post by Rod Speed
We had one kid killed by a dingo a couple of years ago.
And another lunched on someone's baby, literally.
Very rare tho.

Same thing here. Tourists who go up to a bull elk in the rut so that
they can take photos of themselves with the bull. Mountain lion
attack incidents have been on the rise lately. Bear attacks not quite
as often as before. The incidents seem cyclic. The smart thing is
alwys to keep a safe distance and have a plan on what to do in case of
trouble.

[Rod Speed]

Post by PaPaPeng

Post by Rod Speed

Post by PaPaPeng
Me? None of this virgin wilderness campsites for me.
Had my fill of roughing it out while in the army.

Yeah, its not for everyone.

I am into sightseeing

I'm not.

Post by PaPaPeng
and there is a lot of travel time and distance involved to visit
those designated National Park places. The chances of my coming
back are not that great so I prefer to do my walking and doing

I do too.

Post by PaPaPeng
rather than spend time prepping, eating or setting up camp.

That takes very little time at all if decently organised.

Post by PaPaPeng
I know enough about nature and geology to be able
to enjoy what I see and put them into context.
I (including my gron son on accasion) love the wilderness and
am quite capable of enjoying the scenery by myself without having
anyone for miles around. Its just too much trouble to set up camp.

Doesnt need to be. I'm so well organised that it
only takes a few minutes. No more than 10 at most.

Post by PaPaPeng
I also love people. When I hit a town or a business
I always chat them up and learn a lot about the
locals that way. I get a lot of milage out of a holiday.
My son and I are one of those weirdos who can
comfortably go without a full meal for two days,
a few carrry along snacks and bottled water will do,

Yeah, I often dont bother with full meals for longer
than that, particularly in the hottest weather.

Dont bother with bottled water either.

Post by PaPaPeng
so we do cover a lot of ground if need be. We stick
to day trips and get back to civilization for the night.
We travel very light and can move at an instant's notice.

5 mins is instant enough for me.

Post by PaPaPeng

Post by Rod Speed
We've just had someone dragged out of their tent by a crocodile.

This is the real Dawinism at work.

Not really, its much too rare to have any darwinian effect at all.

Post by PaPaPeng
Why would anyone put themselves in that kind of danger?

Basically the risk is FAR lower than
the risk everyone takes driving there.

Post by PaPaPeng
Its usually ignorance of the terrain and conditions.

Nope, its a recognition that the risk is microscopic.

Post by PaPaPeng
They shouldn't do the wilderness thing unless they
have someone more knowledgeable or learn how
to recognize bad ideas before they become one.

Its not a bad idea, its a microscopic risk.

Post by PaPaPeng

Post by Rod Speed
We had one kid killed by a dingo a couple of years ago.
And another lunched on someone's baby, literally.
Very rare tho.

Same thing here.

Nope, this one was in a full official camping ground in
the main national park in that area, adjacent to by far the
biggest natural structure for thousands of miles. Ayres Rock.

Up till that time no one believed a dingo would do something
like that. So much so that virtually everyone believed that she
had murdered the baby and dreampt up a tall story on that.

She was actually charged and convicted and jailed of that.

Post by PaPaPeng
Tourists who go up to a bull elk in the rut so that
they can take photos of themselves with the bull.
Mountain lion attack incidents have been on the
rise lately. Bear attacks not quite as often as before.

Dingos are quite lightly built dogs. Quite a
bit smaller than an alsatian or a labrador.

Post by PaPaPeng
The incidents seem cyclic. The smart thing is alwys to keep a
safe distance and have a plan on what to do in case of trouble.

Easy to say after the event.

We also lose one or two to sharks most years and only fools
stay out of the water completely to avoid that tiny risk.

[Rod Speed]

Post by PaPaPeng

Post by Rod Speed
My dad was always into cooking steak, chops and sausages
in a sort of folding wire frame thing that opened like a book,
with handles, which goes on a wood fire, but it gets awfully
greasy and grungy, hard to carry, and we often have full
fire bans in the hot weather I prefer to camp in. Propane
stoves are fine, wood fires are banned.

For my first road trip I brought along a Hibachi charcoal grill to do
steaks and pork chops, chicken, weiners, etc. After three days
of that (spread out over a week) I tossed the whole sheebang out.

Yeah, quite a bit to cart around if nothing else.

Post by PaPaPeng
First there is only so much BBQ meat one
can eat. Too rich, too bland and too greasy.

Thats basically your completely different ethnic background.

Quite a few of us from that era used to eat that stuff every
day, and often more than once a day too, particularly eating
steak for breakfast etc as well as the main meal of the day too.

I only rarely had steak for breakfast, but did
eat BBQ meat every day for the main meal.

And that was when camping over one whole summer, in a
work situation in a remote area too. No refrigeration at all,
not even ice. We used to get the meat delivered by the
mailman, twice a week. The meat used to end up a tad green
at times, we ate it anyway. Basically fried in a frypan tho.

Basically had that dried instant potato flakes and dried or canned peas.

I've hardly ever had that dried mashed potatoes ever since |-)

Post by PaPaPeng
Secondly if I totalled up the costs its even more than
if I ate at one of those "All You Can Eat" places

True, but there arent any of those where I camp.

Different with the OP on national highways etc tho.

Post by PaPaPeng
and those places have soup

Never bother with soup myself.

Post by PaPaPeng
and salad too.

Or that when camping, too much hassle.

Post by PaPaPeng
Then the camp-cooking equipment is too messy
and involves set up time and clean up-pack up
time better spent doing something else.

Thats not too bad when organised for minimum time.

Thats one big advantage of that arrangement mentioned
at the top, you dont clean it at all, and often dont bother with
plates etc for eating the meat either, just pick it up and eat it.

If it wasnt for the fire ban problem it would be a viable
approach, basically make a thing you could slide the
greasy thingo into. Dad did have one of those, mostly used
for a BBQ meal out of the house, just out for the day etc.

Post by PaPaPeng
And last of all in a restuarant, even a fast food one,
there is the restroom with that heavenly convenience
called a clean private toilet stall and a washbasin.

Yeah, tad more up market that crapping in a hole in the ground.

Post by PaPaPeng
There are restaurants wherever there are roads so one never has
to worry about going hungry for more than an hour's drive anywhere.

That wont work where I camp. They're hours away, much more
time involved than cooking at the campsite, and you really have
to take everything with you, tent and all to use them too.

And since I never bothered with camping showers etc,
things can end up a tad skunky by the end of the holiday
too, specially since I much prefer the hottest weather.

And that can be a tad hot here. I remember one trip in a non
airconditioned car where it was so damned hot we stopped
at an inviting river and everyone including the dog just jumped
in and stayed in there thru the hottest part of the afternoon.

Post by PaPaPeng
One more tip. Avoid having food and drink in the car.

I prefer to eat the fast food when available in the car.

Post by PaPaPeng
A small snack like beef jerky and one pop bottle maybe. But don't make
the car rat heaven with spilled potato chips, candy bits and junk food.

Never ever saw a single rat or mouse in the car. Ever.

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by PaPaPeng

Post by Rod Speed
My dad was always into cooking steak, chops and sausages
in a sort of folding wire frame thing that opened like a book,
with handles, which goes on a wood fire, but it gets awfully
greasy and grungy, hard to carry, and we often have full
fire bans in the hot weather I prefer to camp in. Propane
stoves are fine, wood fires are banned.

For my first road trip I brought along a Hibachi charcoal grill to do
steaks and pork chops, chicken, weiners, etc. After three days of
that (spread out over a week) I tossed the whole sheebang out. First
there is only so much BBQ meat one can eat. Too rich, too bland and
too greasy. Secondly if I totalled up the costs its even more than if
I ate at one of those "All You Can Eat" places and those places have
soup and salad too.

You could've taken a cooler and bought chicken which you'd cut up and
cook in various ways. Rice is also a good thing. You can get a pack of
corn tortillas for a few bucks. I'm pretty close to being able to cook
rice on my tin can wood/charcoal stove. Brown rice is the hardest
though. I don't see why stir fried frozen vegetables like broccoli
should be a problem.

Post by PaPaPeng
Then the camp-cooking equipment is too messy and
involves set up time and clean up-pack up time better spent doing
something else.

Like what? People take away all the things that you can do out in the
wilderness so you are left with what? We used to cook pizza using a
Peakone white gas stove, a pot, a couple of rocks in the bottom and a
frying pan smaller than the diameter of the pot. We would then put a
cover on the pot and have an oven. One time I forgot the yeast though.
Luckily I improvised with some scone mix. That's probably more
complicated than you need. I was thinking of making some flour tortillas
or pita bread and then making pizza on that.

Post by PaPaPeng
And last of all in a restaurant, even a fast food
one, there is the restroom with that heavenly convenience called a
clean private toilet stall and a washbasin. There are restaurants
wherever there are roads so one never has to worry about going hungry
for more than an hour's drive anywhere.

Once they've run through their $1200, they'll have to find the soup
kitchens.

Post by PaPaPeng
One more tip. Avoid having food and drink in the car. A small snack
like beef jerky and one pop bottle maybe. But don't make the car rat
heaven with spilled potato chips, candy bits and junk food.

By all means, throw food and drink all over the inside of your car.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by PaPaPeng

Post by Rod Speed
My dad was always into cooking steak, chops and sausages
in a sort of folding wire frame thing that opened like a book,
with handles, which goes on a wood fire, but it gets awfully
greasy and grungy, hard to carry, and we often have full
fire bans in the hot weather I prefer to camp in. Propane
stoves are fine, wood fires are banned.

For my first road trip I brought along a Hibachi charcoal grill to do
steaks and pork chops, chicken, weiners, etc. After three days of
that (spread out over a week) I tossed the whole sheebang out. First
there is only so much BBQ meat one can eat. Too rich, too bland and
too greasy. Secondly if I totalled up the costs its even more than if
I ate at one of those "All You Can Eat" places and those places have
soup and salad too.

You could've taken a cooler and bought chicken
which you'd cut up and cook in various ways.

I wouldnt normally bother when camping.

Basically prefer to use the dried stuff.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Rice is also a good thing.

Yeah, works very well.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
You can get a pack of corn tortillas for a few bucks.

We couldnt, we can now.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I'm pretty close to being able to cook
rice on my tin can wood/charcoal stove.

Even easier on a proper propane stove.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Brown rice is the hardest though.

Yeah, dont bother with it when camping.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I don't see why stir fried frozen vegetables
like broccoli should be a problem.

Main problem is that I dont have any
way to keep stuff frozen when camping.

I basically still use ice.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by PaPaPeng
Then the camp-cooking equipment is too messy
and involves set up time and clean up-pack up
time better spent doing something else.

Like what? People take away all the things that you can do out in the
wilderness so you are left with what? We used to cook pizza using a
Peakone white gas stove, a pot, a couple of rocks in the bottom and a
frying pan smaller than the diameter of the pot. We would then put a
cover on the pot and have an oven. One time I forgot the yeast though.
Luckily I improvised with some scone mix. That's probably more
complicated than you need. I was thinking of making some
flour tortillas or pita bread and then making pizza on that.

Post by PaPaPeng
And last of all in a restaurant, even a fast food one, there is
the restroom with that heavenly convenience called a clean
private toilet stall and a washbasin. There are restaurants
wherever there are roads so one never has to worry about
going hungry for more than an hour's drive anywhere.

Once they've run through their $1200,
they'll have to find the soup kitchens.

Post by PaPaPeng
One more tip. Avoid having food and drink in the car. A small snack
like beef jerky and one pop bottle maybe. But don't make the car rat
heaven with spilled potato chips, candy bits and junk food.

By all means, throw food and drink all over the inside of your car.

[Joel M. Eichen]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
You could've taken a cooler and bought chicken
which you'd cut up and cook in various ways.

I wouldnt normally bother when camping.
Basically prefer to use the dried stuff.

Where do you buy dried chicken?

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Rice is also a good thing.

Yeah, works very well.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
You can get a pack of corn tortillas for a few bucks.

We couldnt, we can now.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I'm pretty close to being able to cook
rice on my tin can wood/charcoal stove.

Even easier on a proper propane stove.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Brown rice is the hardest though.

Yeah, dont bother with it when camping.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I don't see why stir fried frozen vegetables
like broccoli should be a problem.

Main problem is that I dont have any
way to keep stuff frozen when camping.
I basically still use ice.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by PaPaPeng
Then the camp-cooking equipment is too messy
and involves set up time and clean up-pack up
time better spent doing something else.

Like what? People take away all the things that you can do out in the
wilderness so you are left with what? We used to cook pizza using a
Peakone white gas stove, a pot, a couple of rocks in the bottom and a
frying pan smaller than the diameter of the pot. We would then put a
cover on the pot and have an oven. One time I forgot the yeast though.
Luckily I improvised with some scone mix. That's probably more
complicated than you need. I was thinking of making some
flour tortillas or pita bread and then making pizza on that.

Post by PaPaPeng
And last of all in a restaurant, even a fast food one, there is
the restroom with that heavenly convenience called a clean
private toilet stall and a washbasin. There are restaurants
wherever there are roads so one never has to worry about
going hungry for more than an hour's drive anywhere.

Once they've run through their $1200,
they'll have to find the soup kitchens.

Post by PaPaPeng
One more tip. Avoid having food and drink in the car. A small snack
like beef jerky and one pop bottle maybe. But don't make the car rat
heaven with spilled potato chips, candy bits and junk food.

By all means, throw food and drink all over the inside of your car.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Joel M. Eichen

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
You could've taken a cooler and bought chicken
which you'd cut up and cook in various ways.

I wouldnt normally bother when camping.
Basically prefer to use the dried stuff.

Where do you buy dried chicken?

From the operations specialising in dehydrated stuff for campers.

Its the lightest weight stuff by far.

Post by Joel M. Eichen

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Rice is also a good thing.

Yeah, works very well.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
You can get a pack of corn tortillas for a few bucks.

We couldnt, we can now.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I'm pretty close to being able to cook
rice on my tin can wood/charcoal stove.

Even easier on a proper propane stove.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
Brown rice is the hardest though.

Yeah, dont bother with it when camping.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
I don't see why stir fried frozen vegetables
like broccoli should be a problem.

Main problem is that I dont have any
way to keep stuff frozen when camping.
I basically still use ice.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by PaPaPeng
Then the camp-cooking equipment is too messy
and involves set up time and clean up-pack up
time better spent doing something else.

Like what? People take away all the things that you can do out in the
wilderness so you are left with what? We used to cook pizza using a
Peakone white gas stove, a pot, a couple of rocks in the bottom and a
frying pan smaller than the diameter of the pot. We would then put a
cover on the pot and have an oven. One time I forgot the yeast though.
Luckily I improvised with some scone mix. That's probably more
complicated than you need. I was thinking of making some
flour tortillas or pita bread and then making pizza on that.

Post by PaPaPeng
And last of all in a restaurant, even a fast food one, there is
the restroom with that heavenly convenience called a clean
private toilet stall and a washbasin. There are restaurants
wherever there are roads so one never has to worry about
going hungry for more than an hour's drive anywhere.

Once they've run through their $1200,
they'll have to find the soup kitchens.

Post by PaPaPeng
One more tip. Avoid having food and drink in the car. A small snack
like beef jerky and one pop bottle maybe. But don't make the car rat
heaven with spilled potato chips, candy bits and junk food.

By all means, throw food and drink all over the inside of your car.

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by Joel M. Eichen

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )
You could've taken a cooler and bought chicken
which you'd cut up and cook in various ways.

I wouldnt normally bother when camping.
Basically prefer to use the dried stuff.

Where do you buy dried chicken?

From a Jamaican, man.

[The Real Bev]

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Lodging costs could be cut down to about $400 by traveling in warmer months
when staying at campgrounds is an option.

Or sleeping in the car.

See, right there she's saved a wad o' cash. Supposedly you can sleep in
the car at Walmart. A comprehensive list would be nice. Rest areas are
available as long as you don't stay more than eight hours. No big deal.

The big problems with rest areas are the bright lights and the idling
big rigs. Secondary problems are loud people traipsing to the restrooms
and back and the acceleration noises of the trucks when they leave.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Food...peanut butter sandwiches for breakfast and lunch cost about
$0.60 a day per person.

Doesnt need to cost that much either.

It doesn't have to be kiddie food (or food for our president) either. A
tin can stove can cook you up some quick pan cakes and get your lunch of
tortillas all made up using only wood for fuel.

The last thing I want to do on a trip is <shudder> cook. It's easily
possible to live on bread, cheese, salami, peanut butter, jelly, and
fruit for weeks and weeks, and the odd bacon/egg/hashbrown/toast
breakfast now and then would be a real treat.

Real shame that those 12V immersion heaters wear out so quickly. Handy
for instant coffee.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Dinner bottled water or soda purchased in 24 pack $0.25 per person,
fast food burger from $1.00 menu...$1.85 a day per person.
Total $74 for food.
Not a way that I'd ever want to travel

I wouldn't buy water. I have a water filter I'd use. Eating that kind of
food all the time isn't healthy, that's for sure.

A month isn't "all the time," although a certain amount of attention
should be paid to easing the train's passage through the tunnel, as it
were. Add prunes or prune juice to the grocery list.

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed
I've done it for that length of time and distance. Works fine.

and it'd still leave you $394 over budget.

Not if you sleep in the car.
I'd scrap the rental myself, buy a junker at the start and sell it at the end.

This is pretty easy to do in America. I wonder if anyone has any plans
for doing this in Euroland or Australia. I've got a car you can have for
$350 that will get you a few thousand miles and you can just push it off
a cliff where your done.

What kind, what year, and where are you?

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed
Thats what plenty of the lowest cost tourists do.

But, of course, in the frugal group, we have to tell people to rent new
cars and pay for hotels every night.

I can't imagine how people could pay $100 to sleep in a bed, pee in a
toilet and bathe in a tub.

[Rod Speed]

Post by The Real Bev

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Jessica V.
Lodging costs could be cut down to about $400 by traveling
in warmer months when staying at campgrounds is an option.

Or sleeping in the car.

See, right there she's saved a wad o' cash. Supposedly you can sleep in
the car at Walmart. A comprehensive list would be nice. Rest areas are
available as long as you don't stay more than eight hours. No big deal.

The big problems with rest areas are the bright lights and the idling
big rigs. Secondary problems are loud people traipsing to the restrooms
and back and the acceleration noises of the trucks when they leave.

Yeah, tho I can sleep thru anything, literally.

I did wake up when some stupid bikers started hurling full
bottles of beer against the wall in the flat under mine, but
just realised what was happening and went back to sleep.

Post by The Real Bev

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Jessica V.
Food...peanut butter sandwiches for breakfast
and lunch cost about $0.60 a day per person.

Doesnt need to cost that much either.

It doesn't have to be kiddie food (or food for our president) either.
A tin can stove can cook you up some quick pan cakes and get
your lunch of tortillas all made up using only wood for fuel.

The last thing I want to do on a trip is <shudder> cook.

Its not too bad if you are organised.

Post by The Real Bev
It's easily possible to live on bread, cheese, salami, peanut
butter, jelly, and fruit for weeks and weeks, and the odd bacon/
egg/hashbrown/toast breakfast now and then would be a real treat.
Real shame that those 12V immersion heaters
wear out so quickly. Handy for instant coffee.

I dont bother except for breakfast, just drink water or beer.

Post by The Real Bev

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Jessica V.
Dinner bottled water or soda purchased in 24 pack $0.25 per person,
fast food burger from $1.00 menu...$1.85 a day per person.
Total $74 for food.
Not a way that I'd ever want to travel

I wouldn't buy water. I have a water filter I'd use. Eating
that kind of food all the time isn't healthy, that's for sure.

A month isn't "all the time," although a certain amount of attention
should be paid to easing the train's passage through the tunnel,
as it were. Add prunes or prune juice to the grocery list.

I dont need to. A few less shits in the circumstances is handy anyway.

Post by The Real Bev

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed
I've done it for that length of time and distance. Works fine.

Post by Jessica V.
and it'd still leave you $394 over budget.

Not if you sleep in the car.
I'd scrap the rental myself, buy a junker at the start and sell it at the end.

This is pretty easy to do in America. I wonder if anyone has
any plans for doing this in Euroland or Australia. I've got a
car you can have for $350 that will get you a few thousand
miles and you can just push it off a cliff where your done.

What kind, what year, and where are you?

Post by Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )

Post by Rod Speed
Thats what plenty of the lowest cost tourists do.

But, of course, in the frugal group, we have to tell people
to rent new cars and pay for hotels every night.

I can't imagine how people could pay $100 to
sleep in a bed, pee in a toilet and bathe in a tub.

Yeah, I mostly only do it when someone else is paying for it.

[DrLith]

Post by Rod Speed
I'd scrap the rental myself, buy a junker at the start and sell it at the end.

I'm curious about the logistics of registering a junker if you are not a US
resident.

[Scar]

Post by DrLith
I'm curious about the logistics of registering a junker if you are not a US
resident.

Put your curiosity at rest. It isn't worth the hassle of registration,
maintenance or liability.

[David W.]

Post by Scar

Post by DrLith
I'm curious about the logistics of registering a junker if you are not a

US

Post by DrLith
resident.

Put your curiosity at rest. It isn't worth the hassle of registration,
maintenance or liability.

Registration is probably a piece of cake compared to getting an insurance
policy.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Scar

Post by DrLith
I'm curious about the logistics of registering
a junker if you are not a US resident.

Cant be too hard when so many illegals manage it.

Post by Scar
Put your curiosity at rest.

No thanks.

Post by Scar
It isn't worth the hassle of registration,

I doubt thats any big deal.

Post by Scar
maintenance

I now thats no big deal. If it dies, you abandon it.

Post by Scar
or liability.

Plenty of US residents dont bother about that.

[CindyThe Tax Lady]

Post by Tapa
Do you guys think this would be possible given our budget? 3

Post by Tapa
weeks to do New York to Los Angeles.... any highly regarded
travel agent or agency out there specialising in prepackaged
tours similar to what we want?
Any help would be appreciated!
bfree (AT) hi (DOT) htnet (DOT) hr

I think you are not being realistic. Just gasoline could cost
you $1200! I'm sure someone will break down a more specific
cost sheet for you .... but be prepared to spend at least
3 times of your original amount.
Gasoline one way from San Diego to Detroit is at least $200. In a

car that gets 34 mpg. Cheap hotels are at least $50 per night. There
are coupons in newspaper printed thin magazines usually in doorways of
restarants or rest areas. Some that cost a bit more include
breakfast. The "AAA approved" ones seem to be nicer.

[Bill Bonde ( ``This is the Battle of Epping Forest '' )]

Post by CindyThe Tax Lady

Post by Tapa
Do you guys think this would be possible given our budget? 3

Post by Tapa
weeks to do New York to Los Angeles.... any highly regarded
travel agent or agency out there specialising in prepackaged
tours similar to what we want?
Any help would be appreciated!
bfree (AT) hi (DOT) htnet (DOT) hr

I think you are not being realistic. Just gasoline could cost
you $1200! I'm sure someone will break down a more specific
cost sheet for you .... but be prepared to spend at least
3 times of your original amount.
Gasoline one way from San Diego to Detroit is at least $200. In a

car that gets 34 mpg. Cheap hotels are at least $50 per night. There
are coupons in newspaper printed thin magazines usually in doorways of
restarants or rest areas. Some that cost a bit more include
breakfast. The "AAA approved" ones seem to be nicer.

It's been settled, they are sleeping in their Yugo in the Walmart car
park.

[Rod Speed]

Post by CindyThe Tax Lady

Post by Tapa
Do you guys think this would be possible given our budget? 3

Post by Tapa
weeks to do New York to Los Angeles.... any highly regarded
travel agent or agency out there specialising in prepackaged
tours similar to what we want?
Any help would be appreciated!
bfree (AT) hi (DOT) htnet (DOT) hr

I think you are not being realistic. Just gasoline could cost
you $1200! I'm sure someone will break down a more specific
cost sheet for you .... but be prepared to spend at least
3 times of your original amount.
Gasoline one way from San Diego to Detroit is at least $200. In a

car that gets 34 mpg. Cheap hotels are at least $50 per night. There
are coupons in newspaper printed thin magazines usually in doorways of
restarants or rest areas. Some that cost a bit more include
breakfast. The "AAA approved" ones seem to be nicer.

It's been settled, they are sleeping in their Yugo in the Walmart car park.

Wrong again, a Trabant.

Or a beetle if they arent ex police state krauts.

[Tapa]

Thanks to all for your help - we have considered all that has been
written and, since as many of you have pointed out - our time is a
bit short for such an ambitious tour (+ the weather concerns), we
have since revised it. It will probably include the following:

- 2 weeks touring route LA-Las Vegas-San Francisco (and
sights and national parks on the way)

- another week with relatives in Detroit/Toronto (transfer via
plane)

BTW as for other concerns regarding gasoline/toll/food prices -
like I said, the limit of 1200$ I mentioned previously was only for
travel (plane tickets and car rental) and accommodation expenses
- we do have some pocket money for other expenses. Since we
are reserving the trip fairly early, after looking around a bit, I've
been able to get fairly good prices on international flights (slightly
over 400$)...

So, taking that into account - we would be left with about 80$
between us for car and room expenses. While that is probably
low - I was not under the impression that its an impossible
amount... since we buy plane tickets/rooms/accommodation, my
thoughts were that a skillful travel agent might be able to provide
that in a good bulk/all-in-one package...

[Tapa]

That is - 80$ between us per day...

[Miriam P.]

Post by Tapa
Thanks to all for your help - we have considered all that has been
written and, since as many of you have pointed out - our time is a
bit short for such an ambitious tour (+ the weather concerns), we
- 2 weeks touring route LA-Las Vegas-San Francisco (and
sights and national parks on the way)
- another week with relatives in Detroit/Toronto (transfer via
plane)
BTW as for other concerns regarding gasoline/toll/food prices -
like I said, the limit of 1200$ I mentioned previously was only for
travel (plane tickets and car rental) and accommodation expenses
- we do have some pocket money for other expenses. Since we
are reserving the trip fairly early, after looking around a bit, I've
been able to get fairly good prices on international flights (slightly
over 400$)...
So, taking that into account - we would be left with about 80$
between us for car and room expenses. While that is probably
low - I was not under the impression that its an impossible
amount... since we buy plane tickets/rooms/accommodation, my
thoughts were that a skillful travel agent might be able to provide
that in a good bulk/all-in-one package...

Most posters won't see your updates on these groups:

news:misc.consumers.frugal-living
news:misc.consumers

So I have posted this for you. I still say your estimates
are on the low side.

As always, good luck.

Miriam P.

[Greg Moritz]

Post by Tapa
I am planning a trip with my girlfriend this winter to USA
and was wondering if anyone could help with the specifics.

One piece of advice if you are traveling in the winter would
be to avoid travel in the N since you might get caught in
severe weather and be trapped in a hotel in a desolate location
for an extended period.

Highway I-10 is usually clear most of the winter.

Most Europeans I've talked to about traving in the US
say they really enjoy New Mexico and Utah since they
are so different from Europe. These places can be hit
by winter weather, but it is usually brief and is
infrequent.

[Bill Kilgore]

Try Auto Driveaway. It lets you drive cars to different parts of the USA
and drop them off. You can then pick up another and drive it to another
place. You only have to pay for gas and your expenses. Let me know if you
need for info.

Post by Tapa
I am planning a trip with my girlfriend this winter to USA and was
wondering if anyone could help with the specifics. We have 3 weeks
available and are traveling on extreme budget - would like this trip to
cost less around 1200$ USD per person (for travel and board
expenses - including a flight from Europe).
Ideally, what we would like in those 3 weeks is to drive across
USA - from New York to Los Angeles (or Las Vegas - depending
where we end our tour). We would like to go from New York to
Toronto and then to Detroit (personal reasons). The only other sites
we know we would like to visit are Las Vegas and Los Angeles +
possibly national parks like Death Valley and/or Yosemite and/or
Grand Canyon. We would require elp with in-between sights along
the way - we would like to get a feel of small town America as well,
get to know the traditional as well as the modern. We look for
diversity - from shopping, culture, nature, adventure, food, etc.
We realize our budget is tight, but we are flexible in execution and
will listen to any suggestions. So - we would like our per-person
1.) international flight ticket ideally from Stuttgart, Germany
(Munich is also an option if it brings down the price) to New
York. And the return one from Los Angeles or Las Vegas
(depending where our tour ends) back to Stuttgart/Munich.
2.) a rent-a-car available to us for the duration of our stay.
Pick up in New York - drop off in Los Angeles or Las
Vegas (depending where our tour ends).
3.) planned accommodation in cities/places along our tour path.
(breakfast is optional, we can eat out - we really just need
places to sleep through the night - as we'll probably be
sightseeing during the day... hostels or small or private
boarding places are ok - as long as they are nice/clean)
Do you guys think this would be possible given our budget? 3
weeks to do New York to Los Angeles.... any highly regarded
travel agent or agency out there specialising in prepackaged
tours similar to what we want?
Any help would be appreciated!
bfree (AT) hi (DOT) htnet (DOT) hr

[Hank Sniadoch]

Why would I want to pay for my expenses to take a car and drop it off for
someone else ??? Are you nuts ?? You pay me to do this, not I pay you ....

Post by Bill Kilgore
Try Auto Driveaway. It lets you drive cars to different parts of the USA
and drop them off. You can then pick up another and drive it to another
place. You only have to pay for gas and your expenses. Let me know if
you need for info.

Post by Tapa
I am planning a trip with my girlfriend this winter to USA and was
wondering if anyone could help with the specifics. We have 3 weeks
available and are traveling on extreme budget - would like this trip to
cost less around 1200$ USD per person (for travel and board
expenses - including a flight from Europe).
Ideally, what we would like in those 3 weeks is to drive across
USA - from New York to Los Angeles (or Las Vegas - depending
where we end our tour). We would like to go from New York to
Toronto and then to Detroit (personal reasons). The only other sites
we know we would like to visit are Las Vegas and Los Angeles +
possibly national parks like Death Valley and/or Yosemite and/or
Grand Canyon. We would require elp with in-between sights along
the way - we would like to get a feel of small town America as well,
get to know the traditional as well as the modern. We look for
diversity - from shopping, culture, nature, adventure, food, etc.
We realize our budget is tight, but we are flexible in execution and
will listen to any suggestions. So - we would like our per-person
1.) international flight ticket ideally from Stuttgart, Germany
(Munich is also an option if it brings down the price) to New
York. And the return one from Los Angeles or Las Vegas
(depending where our tour ends) back to Stuttgart/Munich.
2.) a rent-a-car available to us for the duration of our stay.
Pick up in New York - drop off in Los Angeles or Las
Vegas (depending where our tour ends).
3.) planned accommodation in cities/places along our tour path.
(breakfast is optional, we can eat out - we really just need
places to sleep through the night - as we'll probably be
sightseeing during the day... hostels or small or private
boarding places are ok - as long as they are nice/clean)
Do you guys think this would be possible given our budget? 3
weeks to do New York to Los Angeles.... any highly regarded
travel agent or agency out there specialising in prepackaged
tours similar to what we want?
Any help would be appreciated!
bfree (AT) hi (DOT) htnet (DOT) hr